S
scarlets
Member
Well Devon, let's hope you love your job enough to do it for less and less.
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J
Java Jive
Member
scarlets, you capture the situation accurately enough. But, as an international actuary I must admit I am rather pleased with it.
Speaking of the profile, I have just one exam with IoA left to qualify, 6 years of actuarial experience including top international insurance groups and considerable Solvency 2 exposure, and in terms of salary I am absolutely fine with EUR 25K p.a. - which will double my current underlying earnings. Let's compete?
I am really sorry for how you feel but if you make your career decisions on the basis of the expected paycheck you should also be prepared to accept some volatility in it as well. Actuarial job market in the UK is clearly overheated, and (sooner or later) forces of supply and demand should rebalance it to some equilibrium point.
Speaking of the profile, I have just one exam with IoA left to qualify, 6 years of actuarial experience including top international insurance groups and considerable Solvency 2 exposure, and in terms of salary I am absolutely fine with EUR 25K p.a. - which will double my current underlying earnings. Let's compete?
I am really sorry for how you feel but if you make your career decisions on the basis of the expected paycheck you should also be prepared to accept some volatility in it as well. Actuarial job market in the UK is clearly overheated, and (sooner or later) forces of supply and demand should rebalance it to some equilibrium point.
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scarlets
Member
Can't compete with that. Thanks for proving my point.
A
Actuarialism
Member
I'm still in search for an actuarial position, so maybe my opinion isn't the most knowledgeable as yet. However I believe globalisation will help to maintain the the UK profession's reputation for expertise not exclusivity. Many organisations base there international offices here for that reason.
Were the level of expertise to fall, in comparison to other countries, then naturally the value a UK qualified actuary adds to any organisation would also fall. Wouldn't this lead to offices being relocated, less jobs and lower wages as a result?
Competition in most industries is the best way to ensure the greatest benefit is gained, especially to those most talented.
Were the level of expertise to fall, in comparison to other countries, then naturally the value a UK qualified actuary adds to any organisation would also fall. Wouldn't this lead to offices being relocated, less jobs and lower wages as a result?
Competition in most industries is the best way to ensure the greatest benefit is gained, especially to those most talented.
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scarlets
Member
I'm not for one moment suggesting the profession should drop its standards and expertise, not even to appease actuaries abroad.
J
Java Jive
Member
But why not? These evil non-resident actuaries have passed exactly the same exams (usually without any support from the employer), on the average they are more mature professionally than their UK peers and they cost much less.
I do not think scarlets that your top competitive advantage is your UK citizenship, certainly you have other skills and competencies that attract a potential employer. Why not to compete on them?
Having something better and cheaper should be beneficial for the industry and for the society through lower insurance premiums (less wage cost to absorb), no?
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scarlets
Member
So immigration of actuaries brings down actuary pay here. If you & I know this, so do companies.
J
Java Jive
Member
But it is just bringing the pay down from the 'overpriced' to the 'fair value', and it is also in the best interests of the society. If migrant actuaries can live comfortably on such salaries in the UK, surely you are able as well.
V
Viki2010
Member
Within the Actuarial Profession there are certain standards of pay...the companies advertise the range of pay and also there is a minimum you need in order to live debt free in places like London. Also, companies use scales of pay depending on the number of exams etc. It would be difficult to accept and offer a work contract on the basis of large differences in pay.....
If candidates from outside of the EU are FIA qualified, they will be looking at many different options worldwide and will not accept low wage in the UK....Nobody wants to be underpaid....
S
scarlets
Member
"If candidates from outside of the EU are FIA qualified, they will be looking at many different options worldwide and will not accept low wage in the UK....Nobody wants to be underpaid...."
People from poorer countries will be more than willing to work in a richer country for rates below market value in order to migrate, as they put a value on being here due to the other benefits of our society.
I'll be totally honest and say one of the main reasons for me to get into and stay in actuary were the relatively better pay on offer compared to other professions. Given the 6 yrs to qualify compared to 3 yrs in accountancy or 1 yr in teaching, if actuary pay goes down then more people will give it a miss altogether.
People from poorer countries will be more than willing to work in a richer country for rates below market value in order to migrate, as they put a value on being here due to the other benefits of our society.
I'll be totally honest and say one of the main reasons for me to get into and stay in actuary were the relatively better pay on offer compared to other professions. Given the 6 yrs to qualify compared to 3 yrs in accountancy or 1 yr in teaching, if actuary pay goes down then more people will give it a miss altogether.
V
Viki2010
Member
Actually in some "poorer" countries actuaries are not making less than in the UK. If you have the qualifications and the skills you do not have to compromise on the pay....it is a question of being competative on the job market.
I don't think that there is going to be a massive migration of actuaries to the UK just because actuaries are on the shortage list.
I would say that the biggest competition is still going to be at a graduate level as it was in the past because students from all over the world come to UK universities and want to get a job in the UK right after obtaining a degree....
I have to agree with the above. I've been watching the replies on this topic, and I must say it's been interesting. I would like to think that any qualified actuary coming from a "poorer" country would be aware of their worth (which is why they want to move in the first place), and wouldn't expect to be paid less wages than they are due. Additionally, I'd like to think that UK companies would pay international actuaries what they are worth. As Viki said, noone wants to be paid lower wages, and with the costs of relocating to a new country entirely, I can't see why any actuary would want to 'settle' for lower wages. My suggestion to you is find something (a skill, etc) that only you can do, so that you don't have to worry about someone else taking your job.
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scarlets
Member
"I don't think that there is going to be a massive migration of actuaries to the UK just because actuaries are on the shortage list. "
Yes there will be, why do you think prominent recruiters have been lobbying for this for years and are now so smug about it? They know full well they can ramp up their commissions and get more sales volumes by replacing people with cheaper. Companies will go for it no doubt. They're well used to putting Brits on the dole by now, and actuaries tend not to kick up a fuss about things, so no probs.
Yes there will be, why do you think prominent recruiters have been lobbying for this for years and are now so smug about it? They know full well they can ramp up their commissions and get more sales volumes by replacing people with cheaper. Companies will go for it no doubt. They're well used to putting Brits on the dole by now, and actuaries tend not to kick up a fuss about things, so no probs.
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scarlets
Member
"I would say that the biggest competition is still going to be at a graduate level as it was in the past because students from all over the world come to UK universities and want to get a job in the UK right after obtaining a degree...."
That's a very important observation well worthy of discussion on another thread perhaps.
That's a very important observation well worthy of discussion on another thread perhaps.
A
Actuarialism
Member
"I would say that the biggest competition is still going to be at a graduate level as it was in the past because students from all over the world come to UK universities and want to get a job in the UK right after obtaining a degree...."
As someone at the entry level category and a UK citizen, I can say that competition is fierce and there are a lot of people for each position.
Despite this I think that if a foreign student has been educated in the UK and they are of a higher calibre than a UK born student, they should definitely be considered before those of lower ability. Although international students may bring down the graduate wage and take up jobs, they also increase the skills base within the profession. I see it as my responsibility to be a better candidate, rather than be given a job because of where I was born.
In another thread I've discussed how I'm brushing up on my VBA skills and learning R programming to make me stand out. If others have to do the same than it can only increase the expertise within the profession at grass-roots.
As someone at the entry level category and a UK citizen, I can say that competition is fierce and there are a lot of people for each position.
Despite this I think that if a foreign student has been educated in the UK and they are of a higher calibre than a UK born student, they should definitely be considered before those of lower ability. Although international students may bring down the graduate wage and take up jobs, they also increase the skills base within the profession. I see it as my responsibility to be a better candidate, rather than be given a job because of where I was born.
In another thread I've discussed how I'm brushing up on my VBA skills and learning R programming to make me stand out. If others have to do the same than it can only increase the expertise within the profession at grass-roots.
L
langbourner
Member
Why stop at restricting overseas actuaries?
Dear Jane,
I'm concerned at the amount of competition I'm facing and am worried about job security. At the expense of everyone who isn't an actuary, please can you stop accepting new members who don't satisfy the following criteria:
White
Middle Class
Male
Shoe size 10.5
Favourite colour: Blue
Thanks!
Langbourner
P.S. Please publish this letter in The Actuary - perhaps with a reprint of the article about "unnecessary competitiveness": http://www.theactuary.com/actuary/feature/2091965/rise-motor-aggregators This will endear us to the public and really improve the Profession's reputation.
Dear Jane,
I'm concerned at the amount of competition I'm facing and am worried about job security. At the expense of everyone who isn't an actuary, please can you stop accepting new members who don't satisfy the following criteria:
White
Middle Class
Male
Shoe size 10.5
Favourite colour: Blue
Thanks!
Langbourner
P.S. Please publish this letter in The Actuary - perhaps with a reprint of the article about "unnecessary competitiveness": http://www.theactuary.com/actuary/feature/2091965/rise-motor-aggregators This will endear us to the public and really improve the Profession's reputation.
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scarlets
Member
Langbourner, given how much you like to mock those who have concerns & are so positive about these changes, then as you're so brave you can volunteer be the first to get a paycut / lose your job if our fears are borne out in reality, be my guest, after you, I'm sure you won't mind.
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J
Java Jive
Member
scarlets, would you mind if I give you an advice you did not ask?
All topics you have raised lately on the acted forum are looking rather dim, aggressive and pessimistic. It looks like you constantly feel now that someone is stealing your future and something that is rightfully yours - immigrants, colleagues with fake actuarial cv's, ceiops who designed solvency 2 just to annoy you, EU who passed gender act etc etc.
No sarcasm intended in the above, as it really does look like something is terribly wrong with your perception, just as if you were looking at the world through the dirty glass. No one is stealing from you, it is you who steal now the joy of life from yourself. Perhaps just take some rest and things will seem brighter?
All topics you have raised lately on the acted forum are looking rather dim, aggressive and pessimistic. It looks like you constantly feel now that someone is stealing your future and something that is rightfully yours - immigrants, colleagues with fake actuarial cv's, ceiops who designed solvency 2 just to annoy you, EU who passed gender act etc etc.
No sarcasm intended in the above, as it really does look like something is terribly wrong with your perception, just as if you were looking at the world through the dirty glass. No one is stealing from you, it is you who steal now the joy of life from yourself. Perhaps just take some rest and things will seem brighter?
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scarlets
Member
No wonder you are content as your salary has doubled! Not that I'm blaming you for one second for moving to improve your livelihood. My anger is directed at the architects of situations like this not those who take advantage. Are you from EU or non-EU country? Thanks for your concern for my happiness but don't worry I'm fine.
L
langbourner
Member
* Yawn *
Maybe free markets aren't for you? Have you considered becoming a tube driver or moving to North Korea?
Competition and acceptance of failure have made the UK one of the richest countries in the world. We have ample safety nets for the unfortunate.
I suffered a 30% pay cut in 2008. I walked and got a new job. My wife has been made redundant before. We are not starving.
BRING IT!
Maybe free markets aren't for you? Have you considered becoming a tube driver or moving to North Korea?
Competition and acceptance of failure have made the UK one of the richest countries in the world. We have ample safety nets for the unfortunate.
I suffered a 30% pay cut in 2008. I walked and got a new job. My wife has been made redundant before. We are not starving.
BRING IT!
S
scarlets
Member
"Competition and acceptance of failure have made the UK one of the richest countries in the world. We have ample safety nets for the unfortunate."
I cannot compete with third world salary expectations, I must be a failure then. Uk plc a rich country? Lol, we can't afford the things we used to or even employ our own people anymore it seems.
I cannot compete with third world salary expectations, I must be a failure then. Uk plc a rich country? Lol, we can't afford the things we used to or even employ our own people anymore it seems.
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