Majority of students are Overseas

In "The Actuary" this month, President of the Institute Jane Curtis declares that "over half of the Profession's 10,000 students are based overseas".

Also the President states the following :-
"Many members of our Profession work or have links in countries outside the UK. Part of the role of the Profession is to support these members in their work wherever it is located, to enable them to move easily between countries with a portable qualification..."

&

"In an increasingly global economy it is clear that the I&F cannot and must not operate on its own. For that, our eyes must be raised beyond the horizon of UK shores."

Few points :-

1. Where is the support for UK members who don't want to work overseas but would actually would like to work in the UK on behalf of UK customers and have some job security here?

2. If the UK is a country short of actuaries, why won't the Institute apply training discounts here?

3. It seems we will increasingly have to compete internationally for UK jobs at international rates i.e. lower.

4. Why doesn't the Institute itself consider moving abroad and save everyone some costs? If the future membership will be overwhelmingly overseas then why be based in the UK at all ? Edinburgh or London aren't exactly cost-efficient locations compared to setting up an office in a special overseas country. Perhaps Jane Curtis wouldn't mind moving to India and living on localised wages.

5. Won't UK companies take advantage of this labour pool outside the UK by either importing or employing foreign consultancies to carry out actuarial functions instead of training their own UK actuaries? Because it will be cheaper for them.

6. Have UK actuaries been consulted about any of this, or given consent to this agenda?

Must say that the article sounded eeringly similar to the talk of pro-EU politicians. Oh we can't be British, no we've got to sell out internationally or we die. UTTER TOSH !

Maybe it's time to get a career plan B, folks.

 

Scarlets, if you really think you have a worthwhile point to make, can I suggest you stand up in public and say it instead of sniping anonymously on forums no-one reads? A letter to The Actuary, perhaps?

 

I don't really agree with your point 3. I found UK actuarial salaries not be higher than in the EU, Switzerland or US, probably Canda, Japan, Hong Kong etc.

International does not mean cheaper labour. If you are taking about underdeveloped countries in Africa or some parts of Asia or South America then maybe you are right, but candidates from those economies will not have the right kind of skills and experience to compete on the UK job market....with UK experienced actuaries.

 

"but candidates from those economies will not have the right kind of skills and experience to compete on the UK job market....with UK experienced actuaries."

What skills exactly?

 

Calum- has putting actuary on the shortage list been featured in the actuary with arguments for and against presented? Letters have been sent to them on this topic but not been printed.

 

I would say Solvency II, areas of actuarial work which only takes place in a more developed market such as replicating portfolios, esg's, stochastic modelling etc, UK specific reporting or any other important areas for the UK market such as e.g. work on the pensions longevity risk


these are examples of life insurance work....the market in the UK is more sophisticated than in very many countries and thus I don't think that non-UK actuaries have greater chances of securing the best actuarial positions.....

 

They learn about stochastic models in the exams and employers can send them on Prophet or Moses courses.

 

Yes, these people can DEVELOP in the UK....

 

Develop what?

 

It's good that the Profession is opening up and ensuring we remain globally competitive. Do you think the City of London became a world financial centre by shutting itself off from foreigners? Look at what protectionism did to China in the year 1500, or to the whole world in the 1930s.

I'm more concerned with ensuring the standard of actuaries remains high. The legal profession's reputation has declined due to the professional qualification being too easy and because law firms have shut themselves off from external investment (although the recent Legal Services Act should change this).

 

They will come with no UK experience and will need to develop knowledge and skills required on the UK market....

If I was a hiring UK actuary, why would I prefer to hire someone from outside of the EU?

 

I think the standards for the Profession have gone down after signing up for a Group Consultatif and giving exemptions from all UK exams to people qualifying by a European degree in actuarial science.

 

Scarlets, as someone already said (and perhaps you've already tried) if you feel that strongly perhaps a well argued letter to The Actuary and/or the Profession may be a more appropriate place to air your views.

I don't work in the UK, and at times some of my colleagues remark that the Profession doesn't do enough about members outside the UK, and sometimes all we get is lip service. Now I'm not saying that the Profession should just go out and do more (or less) for people outside the UK, but there is another side to the argument.

A significant proportion of the current membership are non-UK and their interests deserve to be looked at too.

If things changed and the UK Profession turned us away and the Society of Actuaries (US) were much more welcoming, then the UK will lose it's status as one of the best recognised credentials in the world. If/When UK actuaries go abroad this will affect them too.

You seemed concerned with competition. If the disparity of cost/value added relative to those outside the UK is big enough, simply shunning foreigners won't help, especially in long term. Eventually someone will move functions to where they get better value (eg call centres).

On the other side of the globalisation equation, do you strictly buy British goods/services, or do you sometimes opt for foreign goods at the expense of British manufacturers etc.

Not saying that you should just do nothing and let your interests be swept aside, but not being two steps ahead of the game (and adapting to suit) is equally bad. The only constant is change.

 

Cheaper.

 

I couldn't care less about that. Why should UK based actuaries, most of whom have no intention of working abroad, have to put up with the profession changing in ways detrimental to their interests to suit a few actuaries who want to work abroad?

 

I guess some are more equal than others.

 

Because the fact is that if the profession developed in the way you want it to, it would become even more irrelevant than it already is.

My father was a shipbuilder on the Clyde - UCS and all that. I've heard all these arguments before. Wake up. There are several billion people out there looking to trade up to a middle class lifestyle and there is nothing that you can do to stop that. Either you can see it coming, and put yourself in a position to deal with it, or you can do nothing.

Oh, and my dad - the day Reid and Airlie reopened the gates of UCS, he left and opened a garage.

 

It's precisely because of what people have seen happen in other parts of the economy and the insurance industry that I have concerns. Calum if you think globalism is good for your job security then you need to wake up. As long as there is an UK insurance industry there should be jpbs for Uk actuaries, but certain people are making moves such that it's going to be British jobs for overseas people.

 

That's the exact opposite of what I've said, several times.

Time for me to bow out of this rather pointless discussion, I think.

 

I don't understand why you think the profession would become irrelevant when there is an UK ins industry & public to serve?

 

It's usually only the weak who are scared of competition

My work is now done in this pointless thread.