Future Student Seeking Advice

[tanjinjack]

Hi everyone,

I am Tan Jin Jack from Malaysia and am looking forward to pursue my study in UK in Actuarial Science for this coming September 2009.

I have 2 concerns that are likely to affect my decision on which university to go for.

The first is the quality of the course by each institution.
I believe I wouldn't be able to get into LSE while the living cost is too high for me to go for City. My current shortlist includes Southampton, Kent and Heriot-Watt.
I would like to know which institutions provide the best quality and career prospects (or to say, career supports by the university)?
So far, I have been receiving a good scholarship offer from Southampton but I feel that Canterbury and Edinburgh are nicer cities than Southampton. (But, this is quite minor.)
{Also, I welcome any new suggestions of universities that I should take a look at.}

The second concern is about the CA papers.
As an international student, I am afraid that it would be difficult in completing my CA papers in my home country due to limited resources. Hence, I wish to get it done in UK.
What I do not know is the view of industry about the non-UK/EU graduates. Does the industry absorb international graduates like us, thus giving us time and work permit to complete the CA papers in UK? (ie, does the industry have a preference of UK/EU graduates over non-UK/EU graduates?)
I find that it's pointless to pursue an actuary career if CA papers are not completed.

I am very glad that I am given a chance to seek advices and comments in this forum. I thank everyone for taking the time in reading this and thank again if you all spend your valuable time in replying in my thread.
Thanks very much.

Regards,
-jin jack-

 

[anon2]

Does the industry absorb international graduates like us

Yes.

 

[tanjinjack]

Yes.

Thank you for your reply.

I know that probably international graduates are absorbed but do companies prefer UK/EU graduates over us? Or, it's basically the same when they are looking for actuaries.

I am afraid I couldn't find a job in UK upon graduation and fail to complete my CA papers.

 

[rajiv_p_lk_2001]

The following is my personal view so it might not be factually correct:

I have 2 concerns that are likely to affect my decision on which university to go for.

The first is the quality of the course by each institution.

There are only a countable number of Universities which offer Actuarial Science. Including a few which started very recently - University of Leicester and Glasgow Caledonian. Out of your shortlist, my ranking of universities (quality of course and employability):


1. Heriot-Watt
2. Southampton
3. Kent

I dont believe there is any significant difference in the quality of teaching between the above unis and all three universities have equally good career services as well.

What I do not know is the view of industry about the non-UK/EU graduates. Does the industry absorb international graduates like us, thus giving us time and work permit to complete the CA papers in UK? (ie, does the industry have a preference of UK/EU graduates over non-UK/EU graduates?)

I was an international student and now I have got a job here, but its quite hard, and the government is tightening the rules further. However with some effort you should be able to secure a job as all international students are eligible for a two year work permit. It also depends on your career intention - do you want to be a consultant? or do you want to work in a life office? or GI?

If you can secure a job with big 4 (PWC, E&Y etc) then you will not have a problem with the visa. But some of the other companies tend to prefer permanent rights to work (Not all).

Provided that you get CT1 - 8 exempted and you get a job immediately after graduation, you will be able to do the CAs within the two years.

Hope this helps.

 

[tanjinjack]

Thanks Rajiv.

May I know which university do you graduate from? Can you tell me more about the university?

Does the 2 years work permit get issued once we got an employment?
Also, how is the salary for a fresh graduate with 8 CTs exempted.
I was told that we have generous benefits from companies so that we can do well on our CAs. Does that apply to international graduates as well?

 

[rajiv_p_lk_2001]

May I know which university do you graduate from? Can you tell me more about the university?

I didn't study Actuarial as a degree. I did Computing and Maths in University of Dundee. Its a not top rated university, but it had good rating for Computing and the main reason why I chose Dundee was of the 50% scholarship the offered me. So I dont think this will help.

But I have a few friends who studied Actuarial in Heriot Watt and Kent and from what I have heard there is not much of a diference.

Does the 2 years work permit get issued once we got an employment?

No, you can apply for the visa upon graduation. You do not need a job offer. Do a google search on 'Post Study Visa' for more info. Also look into UK Borders Agency website.

Also, how is the salary for a fresh graduate with 8 CTs exempted.

Salary for actuarial trainees are very good. Especially because your salary increases as you pass exams. There is not difference in pay or benefits between internationals and locals. Once you are employed you are treated equally.

However there are mixed opinions about having 8 exemptions without any work experience. Employers might feel that you do not have the relevant work experience inline with your exemptions. I have heard that you sometimes might not get the same salary increase comapred to a person who sits for the exams while working. This is plainly because the latter would have gained a lot of work experience while passing the exams.

In my personal opinion I would advise you to try and do a 1 year placement between your 2nd and 3rd year of uni (3rd and 4th if Heriot Watt) if you are doing Actuarial as a degree. That will increase your chance of employment.

 

[jeaneu]

However there are mixed opinions about having 8 exemptions without any work experience. Employers might feel that you do not have the relevant work experience inline with your exemptions. I have heard that you sometimes might not get the same salary increase comapred to a person who sits for the exams while working. This is plainly because the latter would have gained a lot of work experience while passing the exams.

In my personal opinion I would advise you to try and do a 1 year placement between your 2nd and 3rd year of uni (3rd and 4th if Heriot Watt) if you are doing Actuarial as a degree. That will increase your chance of employment.

Agree with rajiv on choice of univesities - I did actuarial science at City University, which is linked to Heriot-Watt, so perhaps I'm slightly biased, but I thought it was good!

Agree about placements too - though as an international student initially I found it difficult to secure an actuarial placement. However I do know a couple of international students who did summer placements at one of the big 4 and secured a job for graduation, with 5 yr work permit (after which you are eligible for permanent residency).

8 exemptions - my advice is try as hard as you can to get them - employers don't look upon you too favorably if you've spent 3 years studying full-time and are not able to get all/most of the exemptions while they may have students who are working and studying at the same time gaining the same exams as you possible in a shorter time period.

Salary - think it varies quite a bit depending on whether you're working in London or outside - higher in London generally. Also varies depending on which industry (life, general, consultancy vs company) you work in. I think employers are now more open to students with exemptions than maybe 5 years ago... I'm guessing (don't know for sure) you would probably get paid halfway between new graduate with no exemptions and someone who's sat the same exams while working and gaining experience. If it helps, my starting salary with 8 exemptions working in London was around £28k.

And as rajiv says, the support you get as an actuarial student in the UK is pretty good - usually one study day a week and all exam fees, course materials and tutorials paid for.

 

[tanjinjack]

Agree with rajiv on choice of univesities - I did actuarial science at City University, which is linked to Heriot-Watt, so perhaps I'm slightly biased, but I thought it was good!

Agree about placements too - though as an international student initially I found it difficult to secure an actuarial placement. However I do know a couple of international students who did summer placements at one of the big 4 and secured a job for graduation, with 5 yr work permit (after which you are eligible for permanent residency).

8 exemptions - my advice is try as hard as you can to get them - employers don't look upon you too favorably if you've spent 3 years studying full-time and are not able to get all/most of the exemptions while they may have students who are working and studying at the same time gaining the same exams as you possible in a shorter time period.

Salary - think it varies quite a bit depending on whether you're working in London or outside - higher in London generally. Also varies depending on which industry (life, general, consultancy vs company) you work in. I think employers are now more open to students with exemptions than maybe 5 years ago... I'm guessing (don't know for sure) you would probably get paid halfway between new graduate with no exemptions and someone who's sat the same exams while working and gaining experience. If it helps, my starting salary with 8 exemptions working in London was around £28k.

And as rajiv says, the support you get as an actuarial student in the UK is pretty good - usually one study day a week and all exam fees, course materials and tutorials paid for.

Thanks jeaneu.
Mind to tell me more about City and Heriot-Watt.
Lecturers strength, assessment methods etc. that you think is still applicable to now.

Also, just a question which I believe probably get answered else in the forum.
Is CA papers really that hard?
(The Actuarial Society of Malaysia shows statistics that there are about 50 qualified actuaries in Malaysia only.)

 

[jeaneu]

Thanks jeaneu.
Mind to tell me more about City and Heriot-Watt.
Lecturers strength, assessment methods etc. that you think is still applicable to now.

Also, just a question which I believe probably get answered else in the forum.
Is CA papers really that hard?
(The Actuarial Society of Malaysia shows statistics that there are about 50 qualified actuaries in Malaysia only.)

I thought the lecturers at City were very good because they have either worked as actuaries beforehand or are involved with the actuarial profession currently in some way eg research/marking exam papers. The course is very well structured, I found it very hard work - mixture of exams and coursework - but if you put the effort in then you should be able to get your exemptions. When I was there you got one exemption in the 1st year, and then the rest were kind of split between yrs 2&3. Think standard is still pretty much the same now, if anything they may have improved their career advice helping actuarial students find jobs etc (this was non-existent when I was there, we had to find our own jobs!)

You can probably find out exact details about what each year of the course covers from the university's website.

CA papers aren't "hard", just very different from the CTs. When you study the CTs in university it's a bit like studying maths in college, most of the subjects involve a lot of formulas so as long as you learn that you're ok. When you get to the CAs, STs, SAs, it's a lot more wordy, and the way of studying for them is different - I found the transition between studying at university and studying while working quite hard, but after a couple of sittings, you get the hang of it.

Number of qualified actuaries in Malaysia - having spoken to a couple of Malaysian actuaries before, the way I understand it is that the actuarial profession in Malaysia is quite small anyway - all the actuaries know who each other are, and the fields of work are not as separate as in the UK, i.e. most of the actuaries do a bit of general insurance, life insurance, pensions etc as well as pricing, reserving etc. Also actuarial students don't get the same level of support as they do here (I think most of them don't get study leave and have no access to tutorials etc like you do in the UK), so it may take them longer to pass exams hence lesser number of qualifeds. I guess if you can qualify quickly and intend to work in Malaysia, you could be in quite high demand as an actuary there.

Hope this helps!

 

[rajiv_p_lk_2001]

In my opinion i think both HW and City are equally good in terms Quality of lecture notes and lecturers. And as Jeaneu said most of the lecturers are from the industry itself. I have gone through both their lecture notes as my girlfriend is studying in Heriot Watt and and one of my firends graduated from City last year it was very similar in terms of content.

However I think that City as a University has a better recognition and there career service might be slightly better. I think this is mainly down to the fact that City is in London and they have more contacts with employers and also they are ranked highly as a university.

But if you are more worried about the finances and if you can get a good scholarship at Heriot Watt, You should go for it, I don't think you will be at a disadvantage by any means. Also there are loads of Malaysians in Heriot Watt, you will not miss home - its like a mini Malaysia!

Good luck.

 

[tanjinjack]

In my opinion i think both HW and City are equally good in terms Quality of lecture notes and lecturers. And as Jeaneu said most of the lecturers are from the industry itself. I have gone through both their lecture notes as my girlfriend is studying in Heriot Watt and and one of my firends graduated from City last year it was very similar in terms of content.

However I think that City as a University has a better recognition and there career service might be slightly better. I think this is mainly down to the fact that City is in London and they have more contacts with employers and also they are ranked highly as a university.

But if you are more worried about the finances and if you can get a good scholarship at Heriot Watt, You should go for it, I don't think you will be at a disadvantage by any means. Also there are loads of Malaysians in Heriot Watt, you will not miss home - its like a mini Malaysia!

Good luck.

Thank you for the comment.
But, in fact, it's Southampton that gives me a very attractive scholarship offer. I am also trying on Kent on scholarship as well. Heriot-Watt brings up the cost as I will have to go through 4 years of studies and the living cost in London is a bit too high.

I don't think I can get 2nd year entry for HW as I hold an Australian qualification instead of STPM or A-Level.

BTW, Southampton's programme is conducted with a lot of Maths component. I do love Maths but I am worried I am not well-prepared enough for CA although I can get 8 CTs exempted.
Kent, City, HW seem to have a better course structure which is quite 'actuarial' compared to Soton's.
What's your thoughts?

Also, as mentioned by Rajiv (and also in HW website), there are a lot of Malaysians in HW. But why isn't the numbers of Fellows in Malaysia increase?
Do Malaysians stay over in UK upon graduation and do not go back to Malaysia?

 

[anon2]

Do Malaysians stay over in UK upon graduation and do not go back to Malaysia?

Pound > Ringgit

(well, maybe not any more)

 

[rajiv_p_lk_2001]

there are a lot of Malaysians in HW. But why isn't the numbers of Fellows in Malaysia increase?

1. Not all of them complete their degree in Actuarial. I heard that a few change courses. They are allowed to change courses until 3rd year.

2. The Actuarial course in HW became more popular quite recently. May be 2 to 3 years ago. So I assume there will be a lot more qualified actuaries in the coming years.

3. Even after you complete your degree, not everyone work as an actuary. Some move into banking (maybe not anymore)

 

[jeaneu]

1. Not all of them complete their degree in Actuarial. I heard that a few change courses. They are allowed to change courses until 3rd year.

2. The Actuarial course in HW became more popular quite recently. May be 2 to 3 years ago. So I assume there will be a lot more qualified actuaries in the coming years.

3. Even after you complete your degree, not everyone work as an actuary. Some move into banking (maybe not anymore)

In terms of drop out rate, as an example, my course at City started with about 110 people in the 1st year (also alot of Malaysians in City - about 30% of course members when I was there)... by the final year, there were only about 80 people left on the actuarial science course - the rest had transferred to other courses. Out of the 80 people on the course only about 15 max went on to an actuarial career - the rest did accounting/banking/other/went back to home countries...

Would have thought living costs Edinburgh for Heriot Watt is lower than London...(anywhere is lower than London)... if you need some extra cash, can always get a part-time job as you're allowed to work as a student...

 

[tanjinjack]

In terms of drop out rate, as an example, my course at City started with about 110 people in the 1st year (also alot of Malaysians in City - about 30% of course members when I was there)... by the final year, there were only about 80 people left on the actuarial science course - the rest had transferred to other courses. Out of the 80 people on the course only about 15 max went on to an actuarial career - the rest did accounting/banking/other/went back to home countries...

Would have thought living costs Edinburgh for Heriot Watt is lower than London...(anywhere is lower than London)... if you need some extra cash, can always get a part-time job as you're allowed to work as a student...

I believe most of the Malaysians are under the scholarship of our Public Service Department.

Also, I would like to know about the importance of Honours in the actuarial industry. How important actually is the Honours? Does a better Honours command better pay?

And, do City and HW graduates command better pay than Southampton and others who are not that reputable in Actuarial Science?

 

[jeaneu]

I believe most of the Malaysians are under the scholarship of our Public Service Department.

Also, I would like to know about the importance of Honours in the actuarial industry. How important actually is the Honours? Does a better Honours command better pay?

And, do City and HW graduates command better pay than Southampton and others who are not that reputable in Actuarial Science?

I know City University had overseas scholarships when I was there - I was offered one...

Don't think it matters which university or actuarial science course you graduate from... number of exemptions you get matters more I think, and if you get all 8 exemptions it's quite likely you will have an honours as well, so it's kind of inter-related...

I think the consideration for you is quality of teaching you will get at the different universities... and how this prepares you for working and for the later exams.

 

[rajiv_p_lk_2001]

What do you mean by "How Improtant is Honours"? Are you asking about doing the 4th year in a Scottish University which is called the Honours year? OR Are you asking about the degree class? (First, Second Upper, etc)?

 

[tanjinjack]

What do you mean by "How Improtant is Honours"? Are you asking about doing the 4th year in a Scottish University which is called the Honours year? OR Are you asking about the degree class? (First, Second Upper, etc)?

The degree class.
Does it play a big role since First and Second Upper all enjoy the 8 CTs exemptiones?

Also, why does HW (or perhaps other Scottish Universities) have the 4th year top-up Honours system? Aren't such system unique to Australia and NZ?

 

[rajiv_p_lk_2001]

The Degree Class:
You definitely need a First or Second Upper to get a job in the UK as most of the companies have a minimum requirement of 2:1. Very few companies would recruit u without it. As far as I know, there is no salary/benefit differences between 2:1 or First.

The exemption requirements vary between universities. For instance in HW you get all 8 exemptions if you get a 2:1 or above regardless of your individual module marks, otherwise you get exemptions for the modules where u have averaged over 75% (A). I am not sure about the other unis, Jeaneu might know abt City.

Scottish System
Second year in a Scottish University is equivalent to first year in an English uni. The first year is usually for people who have done Scottish Highers or who haven't done well in A-Levels. But you do have the option to complete your degree without honours, but then you wouldnt get a degree classification (First or 2:1), it would be an ordinary degree.

 

[jeaneu]

The exemption requirements vary between universities. For instance in HW you get all 8 exemptions if you get a 2:1 or above regardless of your individual module marks, otherwise you get exemptions for the modules where u have averaged over 75% (A). I am not sure about the other unis, Jeaneu might know abt City.

At City, you have to get at least 65-70% in the exams for the relevant modules to get the exemption for the subject. However, you get the chance to re-take the module to get the exemption if you don't manage it first time round. One of my colleagues did actuarial science at Kent uni - think they have the same system as City, except that they don't have a chance of retaking the exam for exemption purposes.

 

[tanjinjack]

At City, you have to get at least 65-70% in the exams for the relevant modules to get the exemption for the subject. However, you get the chance to re-take the module to get the exemption if you don't manage it first time round. One of my colleagues did actuarial science at Kent uni - think they have the same system as City, except that they don't have a chance of retaking the exam for exemption purposes.

Thanks for the information.
You and rajiv have been very helpful in sorting out my thoughts.

May I actually ask for comments from your colleagues about Kent? Perhaps he/she may want to make a post here.

I start to look at Kent seriously when I find that they have quite a number of Fellows in their universities and the course has been there for quite some time.
Plus, there is a chance that I can get a 5,000GBP scholarship.