Salary Expectations

This thread has again taken a different turn...its amusing that everytime a thread on salaries is started normality is maintained for a while, but after sometime the thread just descends into chaos.

I just want to say that I am part of the Actuarial Profession and am proud of it. I do not agree at all with the comments made by the people who wish to demean this profession. For those people who think that Actuarial Profession is not worth it, the work is repitetive, salaries are too high for the work that actuaries do etc etc....just do not go for it...do something else...its as simple as that...

 

And its always because of p51ngh. This chap has a salary complex

 

If you don't have anything to say then just keep quiet.

You have not seen or experienced real pain. Exams are not difficult to pass. All the CTs are easy because you just need to understand the course notes in-order to pass. And the beauty is that the exams will not test you on your innovation skills, which is the hardest skill to develop if you are not naturally gifted.

Out of this 90%, 30% pass? Thats a dead easy exam then!

They are not the hardest of any profession. They may be the hardest of the Financial profession.

Working in the actuarial profession is not hard given that the knowledge you have acquired through study is sufficient to keep you going. Other professions like engineering require you to be learning things constantly. You are only as good as what you are going to learn, and not what you have already learnt. It is much harder to stay afloat in such professions, and salaries don't reflect this.

So you do agree with me that work is repetitive and pays too high! Finally there is someone who sees my side of the argument.

One day the actuarial profession is going to self-abolish. That'll be the day when a bunch of innovative Engineers and Scientists will create an intelligent system to do all the repetitive work there is in the world without demanding any pay! It's already starting to happen!

 

p51ngh - I'm curious, if you feel this strongly about the actuarial profession, why are you spending so much time on this forum?

 

I like to bombard myself with many thoughts and like to read and hear what other people have to say about them.

 

p51ng - i think you have not read my entire reply....you only wish to pick up sentences that favour you...anyways i dont want to get in a personal argument with you as its just a waste of time and energy..people like yourself will come, make silly comments but thats not going to affect our profession in any way..

so best of luck with your stupid comments...keep it up!!!

 

Give over...

... all of you - lol

p51ngh says things to wind people up - he/she loves reaction and attention and that's exactly what he gets from you gullible lot.

 

Why don't you want to get into an argument? It is healthy for the mind. You are not wasting time and energy by adding more fuel to the fire. What silly comments have I made? Point them out. I don't wish to "affect" this damn profession in any way. People like you will just sit there and read other people's posts and become easily offended. Why can't you have a good sensible argument?

my stupid comments won't bring me any luck so your last sentence was irrelevant

 

Excuse me Kail, that is not right. Don't call our fellow forum users a gullible lot because without them we wouldn't have this power conversation. I am not winding people up or looking for attention - I just want to see what others have to say about some things

 

P51hgh, you seem to be enamoured with the application of knowledge, rather than the gathering of it... yet you admit that you're knowledge of the actuarial profession itself is limited. As an actuary, you will be required to make assumptions, check reasonableness, make decisions based on judgement and experience.. the list goes on. All of which can not be defined by a set of "rules". Yes, some of the earlier work as a student can be slightly repetative, but it would be unwise to base your opinion of the entire profession based on what a 1st year student does... many engineer students have to perform long-winded manual calculations, despite the existance of suitable computational tools - it's all about building and showing knowledge of your subject.

And in terms of being paid what you are going to learn, the actuarial profession is constantly changing... just look at ICAs and EEV for a start.

And as for easy exams, it may just be that you have a gift! I'd struggle to pass GCSE French, but would doubt that it makes that harder than CT8 to pass for the average person.

Keep on arguing!

 

the actuarialist shape the world

 

how much salary would someone with 4 CT exams and 4 years work experience get in the north?

 

money versus ???

I think the argument that high pay should be awarded to innovative minds are s'what non-practical.

1) If this is true, then albert einstein should have been a rich man - but i don't think he cared so much about money nor was he the richest man even in his era.

2) What you get paid is a combination of many components - innovative minds are surely important but i'm afraid the reality is a whole lot of micro (your company) and macro (tax etc) things. So how do you justify hugely differential pays between 2 similarly innovative persons - one living in the UK and one in say Vietnam?

3) In the end, it's just a market force - your company won't pay you more than they think you are worth (in the long run).

4) I think people like engineers or scientists enjoy their work. IF they want more money they should just become an Investment Banker. At the end of the day not many people can only work for the money if they hate their jobs (again, in the long run).

 

Hi all - this looks like a fun argument, can't resist adding my 2pennorth.

For what it's worth, as a first year trainee (in general insurance) I haven't been asked to do anything routine or boring yet. If I was, I would consider it part of my job to automate it, or document it sufficiently that a technical or IT person could do it. There are far too few actuaries in my company to waste us on repetitive stuff.

I'd like to think that it isn't that actuaries are paid lots because the exams are hard, but the exams are hard because being an actuary is a difficult job! We have to bring together a lot of different disciplines - for example, a statistician could do parts of an actuary's job; a technician or software engineer other parts; for others you might want an investment analyst, or a pure business person. You have to be on top of the business issues as well as understanding the technical side to be useful as an actuary.

I know this is an exams-focussed forum, but we should remember that there's a lot more to being an actuary than the ability to pass exams.

L

 

Do you mind telling us where you work Louisa?

 

Some companies have jobs for actuarial analysts that only pay £15k in the north...

 

I think that would constitute advertising ;-)
Perhaps I just haven't had time to get properly jaded yet...
L

 

salary survey

That really is quite low... I was on 24k when I joined as a graduate a few years ago, and I didn't have any exam passes / exemptions. I think graduates start on about 26k nowadays. (I work in pensions in London)

You might find this salary survey by Hays useful although it's slightly outdated. http://www.hays.com/library/pdf/ifs/actuarial-ss-2003.pdf

 

Are Actuaries' salaries too high?

First of all, I agree with Rhoda's comments on salary and innovations. For example, the job of a solicitor involves a lot of paperwork and not entirely innovative/ exciting, but they get paid well for it. A lot of GPs' daily work comprise of prescribing patients "sleep more and drink more water", not exactly innovative either, but they also get paid very well.

Barrier to Entry

This phenomenum reflects the high level of barrier to enter these profession. Big law firms are very hard to get into; Doctors train for a very long period. Likewise it is not easy to get an Actuarial graduate job, and horrendously difficult to qualify as an Actuary.

Engineering

I respect my Engineering friends a lot, we certainly can't live without Engineers. To be fair, the skills set required for some Engineers are not that different to Actuaries (e.g. modelling skills, communications). But the truth is, while they get off work bang on at 5.30 and live normal social lives, we spend the prime of our youth evenings studying the never-ending exams. Surely our salary level should reflect this!

Research/ Academia

Given a phD is the requirement for many academic posts, needless to say they are a very qualified bunch. Personally I find the low pay for lecturers, even at top universities, quite outrageous. Blame the government for that. But then academic life is attractive in its own way, just like artists/ writers, some people are willing to put up with lower pay.

 

Are you having a laugh? Is he having a laugh?

Aren't you forgetting something? Most of us only work a 4 day week because we get study days. With a little personal organisation I would say the life of an actuarial student is an easy one - I'm certainly "having a laugh".

 

Ah, you must be a genius if you've qualified and never needed to study outside your study day. Too bad not everybody is as smart as you!

Well well, to be fair 1 study day per week is a very good deal (though I'd much prefer taking it in chunks like the accountants). On the other hand, studying part-time requires a lot of self-discipline, the salary should reflect the fact that not everybody can do it.

Anyway, graduate engineers' salaries aren't that different from graduate actuaries', both in the 20's. A recently chartered civil engineer could earn 40-50k too (in London). Prospects after that point favours the actuaries, but who knows what happens in the future?

I genuinely like my work and believe it's the right balance for me - but let's face it, actuaries' pay is generally decent rather than spectacular.