Judgment Day

[almost_there]

I maintain the Indian students had an additional advantage rather than the UK students being disadvantaged.

lol it's really hard squaring this circle isn't it Jimmy. You just can't get out of this snooker, no matter what angle you take.

 

[Jimmy white]

Isnt it interesting how the attitude conveyed by Jimmy is on all fours with that of the IFOA in particular Trevor Watkins, Cribb and others..

It is as if it has been normalised

On all fours? I’m completely lost here, what do you mean by that?

I have contempt for the IFoA for many reasons and I agree that the Indian students had an unfair advantage. But the magnitude of that advantage and the effect it has had on your lives is being blown way out of proportion, describing your hearts bleeding with all that pain and anguish. Come on.

If the pay day you’re chasing only allows for the potential for lost income, then then the compensation formula paramaterised properly would produce a four figure sum at best. The likelihood is that if you failed an exam in April, more than likely you would have failed the exam in May also, And for me, a measly four figure sum like that given the hassle in pursuing it wouldn’t chalk my cue at all. I doubt that would butter anybody’s parsnips.

Unless of course the emotional hurt was so great, the psychological trauma that was apparently endured could serve to swindle a bonanza out of the IFoA. The exaggerated impact is a disgraceful attempt to maximize the emotional damage attributed to begrudging actuaries of one particular nationality having an unfair advantage over all others. The kind of payouts you naively said earlier do not exist. The reality is if this payout is granted, the IFoA will hike up the fees and other actuaries will end up paying. The cowboys at the IFoA won’t suffer that’s for sure!

Personally, I take pride in my money being legit stemming from hard work, but that’s just me

 

[Ace123]

Thanks. Damn right it is difficult and also very expensive. Most people wouldn’t have the means.

Considering yourself and almost there are telling the world to take action I think it’s all fair that you disclose how much you have spent on legal fees to date and how long it’s taken.

In addition almost there should clarify if he’s already taken action of his own - after all he’s telling everyone else to.

People on here should know that full facts from both sides - and you have no problem shouting about the institute - so speak up and tell them the costs and time frame so they have an accurate picture.

 

[almost_there]

I have contempt for the IFoA for many reasons

Of course you do. You really do.

The likelihood is that if you failed an exam in April, more than likely you would have failed the exam in May also

2 no better than 1, right Jimmy?

 

[almost_there]

Ace123- that's none of your business. Members should be told how much the IFoA failed defence cost. Earlier you told people not happy with IFoA's conduct to resign. Please advise which actuarial body they should join instead, thanks.

"... you have no problem shouting about the institute..."

Well they have been done for racial discrimination. Should we be whispering, or never mention it again- is that what you want?

155. In any event, allowing Indian students to be advantaged and UK students to
be disadvantaged was neither proportionate, nor necessary. Put simply, the
Respondent could have taken steps to ensure that there was no discrimination
practiced by the IAI if it was going to continue to recognise its qualifications. It
could also have taken other measures, for example, ensuring that exams were
taken on the same day under the Indian Institute and the Respondent Institute,
so that Indian students did not get double the opportunities that UK students did.
The Respondent did not explore whether this might be possible.

 

[Ace123]

Ace123- that's none of your business. Members should be told how much the IFoA failed defence cost. Earlier you told people not happy with IFoA's conduct to resign. Please advise which actuarial body they should join instead, thanks.

"... you have no problem shouting about the institute..."

Well they have been done for racial discrimination. Should we be whispering, or never mention it again- is that what you want?

Amazing how that’s none of my business or anyone else’s but your telling others to take court action - it’s only fair that others know exactly how much it will cost and how much time - imagine another student takes your advice and 3 years down the line runs out of money - what then? Null should be honest and tell people the costs and how much time spent.

In addition you should be open and tell them if you are taking action against the IFoA in the courts?

You had no problem in the past asking people for financial information on forums - asking them how much it cost them to sit exams, tutorials and how long it took to qualify. Was that any of your business?

You seem to expect others to provide costs and timelines of exams but when asked for important information like this case your saying it’s no ones business.

 

[almost_there]

Amazing how that’s none of my business or anyone else’s but your telling others to take court action

No. You told people to resign from IFoA. Please tell us where they should go.

 

[Jimmy white]

Of course you do. You really do

Well you can go back over what I’ve said, it’s clear the problems that I have with them. Your sarcasm is unfounded

2 no better than 1, right Jimmy?

Marginally better. You’re acting like whether you pass an exam with a 50% pass rate has a flip of a coin probability for each individual. The reality is it’s not random, some people are not as prepared as others and that’s why they fail. If you’re off the pace in April the likelihood is you’ll be off the pace in May also.

 

[Jimmy white]

Amazing how that’s none of my business or anyone else’s but your telling others to take court action - it’s only fair that others know exactly how much it will cost and how much time - imagine another student takes your advice and 3 years down the line runs out of money - what then? Null should be honest and tell people the costs and how much time spent.

In addition you should be open and tell them if you are taking action against the IFoA in the courts?

You had no problem in the past asking people for financial information on forums - asking them how much it cost them to sit exams, tutorials and how long it took to qualify. Was that any of your business?

If anything your hypocritical - you expect others to provide costs and timelines of exams but when asked for important information like this case your saying it’s no ones business.

I get the feeling they don’t want to disclose how much was paid out for the exaggerated pain and anguish caused as they begrudge the Indian students being able to sit an exam twice rather than once.

 

[dmck]

Very good points Ace123 - advising people to take legal action and asserting that their claims will succeed without detailing potential costs or likelihood is misleading.

I guess it's the actuarial equivalent of advising an individual to make an investment, telling them that it would return x% without disclosing the costs or how the investment could work.

Then, once the individual asks questions you either completely ignore them, respond with a different question or cast aspersions on the individual because they don't agree with your view point.

 

[whistleblower21]

That's a bit naïve. There's all sorts of people exaggerating their detriment in courts. You often hear of cases of somebody bumping their leg off the leg of a table with no lasting damage and getting five figure payouts. I'm sure a few crocodile tears at a racial discrimination court case will squeeze a few pay days out of the IFoA.

Far from doing me a favour, they'll probably up my fee to pay for the "compensation based on the principle of remedying the wrong that was done"....

Are you therefore objecting to members fees being put up to pay for the discrimination done by the IFOA and also basing this on potential exaggeration of the detriment??

 

[whistleblower21]

Oh give me a break! The drama!!!!

The Indian actuaries could do the exams more time than the UK students could because of a loophole. That loophole will more than likely now be closed and at that point we will be left with a generation of Indian students which have had an advantage rather than UK students. Big deal. The fact remains you have in no way been disadvantaged in comparison to the UK actuaries who came before you and the UK (and now one the loophole is closed) the Indian actuaries who will come after you.

I'm going to leave the office soon to meet Steve Davis for a pint, and I'll walk past homeless people on the street and a hospital packed with sick children and worried parents. After you pass the exams and become a fellow the exams will feel like a box ticked and it will no longer matter as your experience will determine the jobs you get once you're qualified and the salary will range from very good to extremely good. A bit of perspective please!

Isnt your argument similar to telling a women on £50k salary that she has nothing to complaint about when a man doing the same job is on £60k salary because you will "walk past homeless people on the street and a hospital packed with sick children and worried parents"?

Moreover, are you deliberately choosing not to recognise the extra time it takes for those with only 2 sittings to qualify because "[a]fter you pass the exams and become a fellow the exams will feel like a box ticked and it will no longer matter as your experience will determine the jobs you get once you're qualified and the salary will range from very good to extremely good"

 

[almost_there]

If you’re off the pace in April the likelihood is you’ll be off the pace in May also.

You might be off the pace by 1 mark in April but meet the pass mark in May. As the Judgment notes in paragraph 149:
149. The Tribunal found that, as a matter of logic, having two opportunities to
pass an exam which tests the same knowledge is of benefit and does give the
candidate an additional chance to pass the relevant exam. It also reduces the
chance of external factors detrimentally affecting a candidate’s performance. If a
candidate is ill on one day, or has other factors affecting their performance, they
have a chance, a month later, to sit an exam testing the same knowledge, when
those external factors might not be present.

 

[whistleblower21]

Why did the court specifically say British students? why not say all students?

The IFoA haven't been found to discriminate against non British members in the judgment that you posted. I'm a non British member.

Wow. These posts explain why the IFOA genuinely believed they could get away with doing what they did.

 

[Ace123]

No. You told people to resign from IFoA. Please tell us where they should go.

i didn’t tell people - I asked Null why he would stay in an organisation that he believes acts unethical - you then decided to ask me where’s he should go - completely different from me telling people to resign.

 

[Ace123]

You might be off the pace by 1 mark in April but meet the pass mark in May. As the Judgment notes in paragraph 149:
149. The Tribunal found that, as a matter of logic, having two opportunities to
pass an exam which tests the same knowledge is of benefit and does give the
candidate an additional chance to pass the relevant exam. It also reduces the
chance of external factors detrimentally affecting a candidate’s performance. If a
candidate is ill on one day, or has other factors affecting their performance, they
have a chance, a month later, to sit an exam testing the same knowledge, when
those external factors might not be present.

Look again - the court specifically says one thing and you interpret it to mean another.

The extract you quoted doesn’t say you might fail by one mark in April and pass in May - it says you could have an additional opportunity to pass the relevant exam.

But let’s not let the truth get in the way.

 

[Admin]

Think it's time for a break - we'll re-open next week. Enjoy the rest of your weekends!

 

[dmck]

Look again - the court specifically says one thing and you interpret it to mean another.

The extract you quoted doesn’t say you might fail by one mark in April and pass in May - it says you could have an additional opportunity to pass the relevant exam.

Agree Ace123 - it's the quality of the study preparation which is more important than the number of attempts. Being well rested and motivated to sit an exam in a positive mindset is, in my mind, preferable to being tired from sitting just a few weeks before.

I'm not saying there might not be an advantage for some - just that it's not as advantageous as some are making out

 

[almost_there]

Agree Ace123 - it's the quality of the study preparation which is more important than the number of attempts. Being well rested and motivated to sit an exam in a positive mindset is, in my mind, preferable to being tired from sitting just a few weeks before.

You are still arguing 2 = 4 aren't you? Are you an actuary - serious question.

 

[Null]

I thought this post was closed? When will the IFOA make a statement about the fact that there is a ruling from the employment tribunal that says the IFOA have discriminated directly and indirectly as well as instructed the IAI to discriminate. Why is there no statement about the suspension of the Indian MRA or exemption process which the IFOA has been bagging money for nearly two decades?

Note: I see my words have been modified but acted have never notified me of any change and I have no idea if what I’m posting here is actually what I have posted

 

[dmck]

You are still arguing 2 = 4 aren't you? Are you an actuary - serious question.

Another case of selective editing from you! Read the second paragraph.

Yes, I am an actuary - I qualified last year. What makes you ask? In any case, a student's opinions are just as valid as someone who is qualified. Are you a qualified actuary?