Easier through India

[RaViShankar]

Hi, it looks like every country now will have an Actuarial society, is this good for the profession since the standards are no longer the same. For example I was born in India at Adra, but I now live somewhere and I'm taking the IOA exams.

However I just happenend to come across Indian past papers from the Institute of Actuaries of India web page. The papers are a repeat of the questions set by the IOA. This is clearly not fair, while we sweat to understand and get horrible questions on the day, students of the Institute of Actuaries of India can just memorise UK papers.

 

[Oxymoron]

Hi, it looks like every country now will have an Actuarial society, is this good for the profession since the standards are no longer the same. For example I was born in India at Adra, but I now live somewhere and I'm taking the IOA exams.

However I just happened to come across Indian past papers from the Institute of Actuaries of India web page. The papers are a repeat of the questions set by the IOA. This is clearly not fair, while we sweat to understand and get horrible questions on the day, students of the Institute of Actuaries of India can just memorise UK papers.

If this is the case - why is the pass rate so bad? People could just mug up old papers and become actuaries. What you're looking at is probably isolated sets of questions - like saying Beethoven's ode to joy is a rip off of Mozart's offertorium.

 

[Kht99]

Thanks for the info...

 

[RaViShankar]

Oxymrn so you agree that the questions are being repeated, thanks. Oh, I'm not a marker so I can't know why the low pass rates.

 

[Oxymoron]

Oxymrn so you agree that the questions are being repeated, thanks.

Oh, I'm not a marker so I can't know why the low pass rates.

If being an actuary from India was so easy and can be achieved by just mugging up UK questions:
1) There will be no mutual recognition agreement with the UK
2) The pass rate will not be in the region of 5-15% a paper - simple issue of efficient market hypothesis.
3) The number of fellows and associates in the last 10 years would have compounded exponentially - instead of remaining constant.
4) The trend right now is - Indian students "prefer" to write the UK exams because there's a popular belief that it's easier for them to pass from the UK - ironic, isn't it?

So, instead of commenting on isolated questions, you should talk about standards from the bigger picture.

 

[Mr. Actuary]

Hi, it looks like every country now will have an Actuarial society, is this good for the profession since the standards are no longer the same. For example I was born in India at Adra, but I now live somewhere and I'm taking the IOA exams.

However I just happenend to come across Indian past papers from the Institute of Actuaries of India web page. The papers are a repeat of the questions set by the IOA. This is clearly not fair, while we sweat to understand and get horrible questions on the day, students of the Institute of Actuaries of India can just memorise UK papers.

I agree that there may be a few(1 or 2) questions in Indian papers that might be handpicked from relevant past papers of IOA but this gets you nowhere near to the pass mark. And then again there are some questions of IFA that are repeats of the past questions of IOA itself!
On the whole I have an opinion that uk exams are easier to pass as they conform much more to the acted material (CMP) than their indian counterparts.
P.S. I am taking exams from both the societies.

 

[RaViShankar]

My point is, the word Actuary today doesn't carry a lot of weight as it did in the past. There are so many Actuarial Societies, they end up with either low standards or insanely high standards by competing with the IOA/FOA as students of the Institute of Actuaries of India like to make us believe.

Truly speaking, I'm sure you all know, a fellow is really a "Fellow Of The Institute and Faculty of Actuaries", even if you don't agree, you can all feel it in your heart(S).

 

[Oxymoron]

My point is, the word Actuary today doesn't carry a lot of weight as it did in the past.

And you base this on?

There are so many Actuarial Societies, they end up with either low standards or insanely high standards by competing with the IOA/FOA as students of the Institute of Actuaries of India like to make us believe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

Truly speaking, I'm sure you all know, a fellow is really a "Fellow Of The Institute and Faculty of Actuaries", even if you don't agree, you can all feel it in your heart(S).

 

[High91]

And you base this on?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry

Oxymoron, I wish we had a 'like' option.. HAHAHA

 

[Mr. Actuary]

Oxymoron- WELL SAID!

My point is, the word Actuary today doesn't carry a lot of weight as it did in the past. There are so many Actuarial Societies, they end up with either low standards or insanely high standards by competing with the IOA/FOA as students of the Institute of Actuaries of India like to make us believe.

Truly speaking, I'm sure you all know, a fellow is really a "Fellow Of The Institute and Faculty of Actuaries", even if you don't agree, you can all feel it in your heart(S).

Truth be told, it is not the Institute of Actuaries of India that is letting down the standards of the Actuarial Profession but IFA, by accrediting more than 30 university courses. The indian society holds an mou only with ISI, Kolkata.
This might be the reason why the increase in the no. of fellows of IAI annually is at such a meagre rate and why actuaries hold much reverence among the learned society in india .

 

[manish.rex]

I have been analysing past papers from both the societies for the last 3-4 years, and I have seen only 3-4 questions (numerical-problems) where IAI have taken the essence from the IOA.

On the other hand, in papers like CT-3, 4 and 6, most of the times, I find questions designed by Institute or taken from text books in IAI papers.I am not ready toa accepts that questions are directly taken from IOA past papers, as the level of difficulty,understanding required and the originality of the question is preserved in IAI exams. This is based on the last 6 years of exam papers I have gone through.

IFA or IOA, on the other hand, allow pass rates like 60-70%, which to me, sounds criminal for a professional exam pass rate to be...I know people whoe cleared papers like CT-4 & 5 from IOA ,with just 2 months prep. You cant do it from IAI , except when you are a genius...

Hi, it looks like every country now will have an Actuarial society, is this good for the profession since the standards are no longer the same. For example I was born in India at Adra, but I now live somewhere and I'm taking the IOA exams.

However I just happenend to come across Indian past papers from the Institute of Actuaries of India web page. The papers are a repeat of the questions set by the IOA. This is clearly not fair, while we sweat to understand and get horrible questions on the day, students of the Institute of Actuaries of India can just memorise UK papers.

 

[RaViShankar]

My point here is that IOA/FOA is the real thing, whether some other society has more difficult or easier exams is due to competition with the real thing for the former and complacency for the latter.

Every society offering exams is competing with the real thing. This is supposed to be obvious, we all know it. They always explain the difficulty or the simplicity relative to the UK profession. Hence if everything is relative to UK, then there is only one Fellow.

 

[manish.rex]

My point here is that IOA/FOA is the real thing, whether some other society has more difficult or easier exams is due to competition with the real thing for the former and complacency for the latter.

Every society offering exams is competing with the real thing. This is supposed to be obvious, we all know it. They always explain the difficulty or the simplicity relative to the UK profession. Hence if everything is relative to UK, then there is only one Fellow.

I find difficult to understand what you mean by real...is it like they only can produce original/new ideas..run business innovatively..while others can only hope to ape them?

Its more like saying that since a car is German brand , it has to be the original and the best, while Japanese brands and Ameriacn and Korean are only replicas... Just 'coz Germans invented the Car first!!

 

[bharasri.ibm]

If you just take a look at some question papers like the CT3 paper of India in May 2011 for example, you will know which of them is tougher to clear. The Indian papers are way harder than the British papers which are simple application questions of the core reading and ActEd notes. In India, they go beyond the syllabus to test things and probably some questions were repeated before 2010 because the Institute in India was still maturing wrt to the examination process. But as this point in time, they have really reached world standards and the QPs are truly to world standards.

 

[bapan]

If you just take a look at some question papers like the CT3 paper of India in May 2011 for example, you will know which of them is tougher to clear. The Indian papers are way harder than the British papers which are simple application questions of the core reading and ActEd notes. In India, they go beyond the syllabus to test things and probably some questions were repeated before 2010 because the Institute in India was still maturing wrt to the examination process. But as this point in time, they have really reached world standards and the QPs are truly to world standards.

Wonder what does everyone thinks of IFA CT3 paper from this year's April diet ... http://www.actuaries.org.uk/research-and-resources/documents/subject-ct3-probability-and-mathematical-statistics-exam-paper-apri

How would you view the difficulty level of this paper when compared to 2011 IAI paper?

My view is whether it is easy or hard depends on the level of preparation and level of understanding of basic concepts.

 

[didster]

The grass is always greener on the other side, isn't it?

 

[manish.rex]

Yes that is true..level of difficulty is correlated with the levl of preparation. This paper from April diet is preety easy..if you understand the basic concepts right...and generally speaking this paper is very easy

Wonder what does everyone thinks of IFA CT3 paper from this year's April diet ... http://www.actuaries.org.uk/research-and-resources/documents/subject-ct3-probability-and-mathematical-statistics-exam-paper-apri

How would you view the difficulty level of this paper when compared to 2011 IAI paper?

My view is whether it is easy or hard depends on the level of preparation and level of understanding of basic concepts.

 

[vikky]

I cant help but smile after reading this mail trail...some pointers to keep in mind..
1)Till the late 80s the Indian Institute didnt even have the technical infrastructure to conduct fellowship examinations.They have always looked to their UK counterparts for help and guidance on all matters.The much touted entrance examinations for the Indian society has also been structured after getting valuable feedback and advice from their UK counterparts
2)The UK actuarial degree commands a much more strong presence/credibility feel in the global market(including UK,US,Australia,the Middle East,Africa-you could speak to recruiters in all these countries and they will concur)

I do agree on one glaring disconnect.The fact that 30 university courses in the UK actually allow you to get exemptions from papers.This is unfair for a number of reasons and you cannot compare the amount of hard work you need to put in to clear the exams from the Institute as opposed to clearing them on the basis of some university "fast track 9 month" magical course for 9 CT exemptions.
Cheers
Good luck to everyone who are writing these exams from their respective Institutes.

 

[John Lee]

Do bear in mind that the IFA also repeats some of its old questions, sometimes with the exact same numbers....

 

[Calum]

you cannot compare the amount of hard work you need to put in to clear the exams from the Institute as opposed to clearing them on the basis of some university "fast track 9 month" magical course for 9 CT exemptions.

You have never seen someone eight months into a one year Masters course if you think that.

Bear in mind that most of the CT material is mid-level undergraduate maths at best. Someone with the requisite mathematical maturity shouldn't have difficulty covering it in a relatively short time period if they are properly prepared and studying full time. In addition, large chunks of it will normally be familiar material from previous study.