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Benny
Member
I'm being charged £7,300 - 2 years worth of training costs.
Fair?
Fair?
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Cardano
Member
I think it is difficult to say without more details, but I would be surprised if it cost less than 100,000 to train an actuary who starts with no exemptions
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Zebedee
Member
Different companies take very different approaches here. Some will let you walk with no charge and others try to reclaim costs.
I take Cardano's point about cost to train an actuary but let's not forget that you're not exclusively studying. If the company gained nothing until you qualified then his point would be more valid, but hopefully you are adding plenty of value as a student too.
Start by insisting on a detailed breakdown of costs and charges, which should specify courses attended, materials paid for etc. Anything done more than say 6 months / 1 year ago is probably unreasonable to reclaim. Check the details of the terms and conditions of your employment and speak to the HR manager as they may be more objective than your line manager. Remember it's a negotiation; they're starting at £7.2k, you're presumably at £0 and you'll meet somewhere in the middle (much closer to £0 I hope).
When it comes down to it the most the can actually take is whatever they owe you, i.e. the contents of your final paypacket. So if you're on less than £7,200 a month then they'll have to request the rest. Since it's unlikely that they'll take you to court for a small sum then whether you pay or not is really up to you.
Best of luck!
I take Cardano's point about cost to train an actuary but let's not forget that you're not exclusively studying. If the company gained nothing until you qualified then his point would be more valid, but hopefully you are adding plenty of value as a student too.
Start by insisting on a detailed breakdown of costs and charges, which should specify courses attended, materials paid for etc. Anything done more than say 6 months / 1 year ago is probably unreasonable to reclaim. Check the details of the terms and conditions of your employment and speak to the HR manager as they may be more objective than your line manager. Remember it's a negotiation; they're starting at £7.2k, you're presumably at £0 and you'll meet somewhere in the middle (much closer to £0 I hope).
When it comes down to it the most the can actually take is whatever they owe you, i.e. the contents of your final paypacket. So if you're on less than £7,200 a month then they'll have to request the rest. Since it's unlikely that they'll take you to court for a small sum then whether you pay or not is really up to you.
Best of luck!
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vix
Member
This of course assumes that you have a notice period of one month. I was stung for more than a month's salary. As my notice period was three months, they offered to spread this over the three months - how kind!
I feel your pain Benny!
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YetAnotherStudent
Member
was this specified in your original contract of employment???
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LondonStudent
Member
Surely you can get your new employer to front up with the costs?
It's a pretty common occurance in the London GI market.
It's a pretty common occurance in the London GI market.
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Benny
Member
I'm being asked for 2 years / 4 sittings.
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YetAnotherStudent
Member
4 sittings at £7300? are they including lost time due to study leave or something?
Or did you go to lots of tutorials?
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vix
Member
Benny
I would certainly check your employment contract. Once you can confirm that your employer is acting within the agreement, try to speak with them about negotiating some kind of reduction. There is usually room for some discretion as Zebedee said above.
The next step would be to check with your new employer whether they would be willing to meet these costs. This could be either as an expense claim or as a direct payment to your old employer. Even if they are unwilling to do this, they may be able to meet the upfront costs and deduct from your salary payments over, say, the next 6 to 12 months. At least that would make it a bit easier for you financially.
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Zebedee
Member
Seems to me you need to first check their sums. £7,300 for 4 sessions seems loads, but you know how many exams you sat, tutorials you attended and course materials you bought. They almost certainly can't charge for study time, assuming that studying is part of your contract, except for study for exams you haven't sat (e.g. if you've taken days already for Sep08).
Presume you've checked your T&Cs. How much clawback do these allow?
If both these checks show that they're acting legitimately then find out how much your new employer is prepared to meet. I assume you're not the only person who's left your company in the last 2 years so you must have been aware that they applied some clawback and hopefully broached the subject at interview.
If your new employer won't pay it (or won't pay it all) then decide how much you're prepared to meet over and above the pay due to you.
Hard to provide much more given that you've been so brief with info provided.
Presume you've checked your T&Cs. How much clawback do these allow?
If both these checks show that they're acting legitimately then find out how much your new employer is prepared to meet. I assume you're not the only person who's left your company in the last 2 years so you must have been aware that they applied some clawback and hopefully broached the subject at interview.
If your new employer won't pay it (or won't pay it all) then decide how much you're prepared to meet over and above the pay due to you.
Hard to provide much more given that you've been so brief with info provided.
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anon2
Member
Tell them to stick it.
Dont serve notice period.
Dont serve notice period.
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MissAussie
Member
wow. you guys get charged the costs of your study?
In Australia most places give you study leave & pay for your first attempt (some, like mine, pay for your first and/or successful attempt. that gives me at least 2 goes at the exam before I fork out my own money)
In Australia most places give you study leave & pay for your first attempt (some, like mine, pay for your first and/or successful attempt. that gives me at least 2 goes at the exam before I fork out my own money)
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Zebedee
Member
Think you've missed the point of the thread slightly MissAussie. Most employers meet study costs, including Benny's. The issue here is that they have requested he re-pay them as he's leaving. This practice is fairly widespread but certainly not universal.
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Gareth
Member
I'd speak to an employment lawyer and get them to write a friendly letter to your ex-employer. Unless this is in your employment contract they have little right to a clawback of costs.
Also ask your new employer to pay it if they want you to join.
Also ask your new employer to pay it if they want you to join.
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MissAussie
Member
Aah, thanks for clarifying. I knew I must have read the thread incorrectly. Clawback is not all that common in Australia, that's why I was unaware of it.
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avanbuiten
Member
With clawback you are nearly always made to sign something when you join. If it isn't in a contract or you haven't signed then they have no right to clawback. I expect though, you did sign something in which case all you can do is try and talk to them, good luck.
My last employer I left (large consultancy) had the right to clawback, but they were good enough not to do this. A lot of employers have the right (I signed something) but not all enact it! If you leave on good terms they're less likely to make you pay. Also, with my last employer I think their mentality was if we start clawing back money off every student who leaves we may have a recruitment problem in the future. Especially as people don't always stay at Consultancies that long (although some stay yeaaarrrrrrs).
Which brings me on to my next point. Who is your employer? Would the prospect of naming them in a letter to student page of Actuary magazine make them change their mind or maybe half the amount? News like this about a company can seriously impede their ability to recruit senior students (graduates will take whatever they can get!).
My new employer has a clawback scheme (I signed it) where they can take 100% of last 12 months, then 50% of 12 months preceeding that. I have a strong feeling that they'd make me pay it as well! Luckily I'm not planning on leaving any time soon so hopefully it'll never be an issue.
I understand why they have these clauses, it's expensive to train an actuary. At the same time though I know they don't have any hesitation in taking on students from other companies (who have a number of exam passes already), so really I'm not convinced by the clawback argument.
Good luck!
p.s. 7k for 4 exams is possible:
4 X £1000 tutorials = £4,000
4 x £250 exam fee = £1,000
4 x £500 notes, marking, study aides = £2,000
Total = £7,000 (and that's based on CT subjects!!!)
My last employer I left (large consultancy) had the right to clawback, but they were good enough not to do this. A lot of employers have the right (I signed something) but not all enact it! If you leave on good terms they're less likely to make you pay. Also, with my last employer I think their mentality was if we start clawing back money off every student who leaves we may have a recruitment problem in the future. Especially as people don't always stay at Consultancies that long (although some stay yeaaarrrrrrs).
Which brings me on to my next point. Who is your employer? Would the prospect of naming them in a letter to student page of Actuary magazine make them change their mind or maybe half the amount? News like this about a company can seriously impede their ability to recruit senior students (graduates will take whatever they can get!).
My new employer has a clawback scheme (I signed it) where they can take 100% of last 12 months, then 50% of 12 months preceeding that. I have a strong feeling that they'd make me pay it as well! Luckily I'm not planning on leaving any time soon so hopefully it'll never be an issue.
I understand why they have these clauses, it's expensive to train an actuary. At the same time though I know they don't have any hesitation in taking on students from other companies (who have a number of exam passes already), so really I'm not convinced by the clawback argument.
Good luck!
p.s. 7k for 4 exams is possible:
4 X £1000 tutorials = £4,000
4 x £250 exam fee = £1,000
4 x £500 notes, marking, study aides = £2,000
Total = £7,000 (and that's based on CT subjects!!!)
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Cardano
Member
"Which brings me on to my next point. Who is your employer? Would the prospect of naming them in a letter to student page of Actuary magazine make them change their mind or maybe half the amount? News like this about a company can seriously impede their ability to recruit senior students (graduates will take whatever they can get!)"
The Actuary magazine depends on the goodwill, support and possibly advertising from actuarial firms. There isn't a chance they would publish a letter like that.
The Actuary magazine depends on the goodwill, support and possibly advertising from actuarial firms. There isn't a chance they would publish a letter like that.
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avanbuiten
Member
Yes they would.
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Benny
Member
At the possible expense of my anonymity the company was Generali, based in Guernsey.
To be quite honest they made my last 9 months there a bit of a misery. I believe they are recruiting at the moment so I would suggest everyone stay well away.
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sheppard
Member
Don't think so, I was asked about taking a role in that company but a different country, but saw your post and decided not to proceed, the market is very active at the moment. You obviously progressed in your time there, so they gained from that. Actuaries typically add value to the company, so if you have progressed in the exams, then they already have gained value from your cost of study materials. Did you have much say about what what materials you could order?
Maybe Acted or the student page in the mag should take a survey to see what is industry practise? After all, the fees paid (mainly) pay for their services. Suggest breakdown by industry and location. Use survey monkey or a tool like that, rather than rely on students to email a particular person??
Any other ideas peeps?