Is taking the CII, without the support of an employer, a good/viable option?

M

M Willis

Active Member
I am currently looking exclusively at actuarial (graduate) opportunities which offer to put me through the CII qualification. However, I was recently wondering whether I could broaden the range of actuarial jobs that I could apply to by also considering those which do not offer the qualification and then do it alone in my own time and at my own expense.

I could then apply for more serious actuarial roles once I had this qualification (and perhaps it would be worth more, for the commitment demonstrated, that I had done it at my own expense).

Could anyone comment on whether this is likely to be a good career move, or not? Additionally, could anyone give a rough figure as to how much it would cost me to do this?
 
It is possible to self fund. you can see prices of tuition material here on the ActEd site - most people use combined materials packs. This is the bear minimum you will need. The exam fees are separate.

It is possible to do a couple of the early stage examinations without membership of the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries. However be aware that the exams are changing in 2019 so you need to look carefully how any passes you gain will give credit under the 2019 regime before doing this. Most however require you to be a member of the profession and there are annual subscriptions payable.

You need to be very clear which profession you want to join. In your other discussion you mention ACII. This is NOT offered by the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries. These exams are with the Chartered Insurance Institute which is an entirely separate body. You would need to look into what if any exemptions available to you if you do CII exams and then want membership of the actuarial profession.

It is a big time commitment to self study. Recommended study times are published on actuaries.org.uk. for the actuarial exams. How much you need depends in part on your academic background. Most people do get some leave as part of their employment package to do the actuarial exams. It is unusual not to get a support package of some form. The study leave alone is insufficient. You need to supplement it working in your own time. So do not underestimate the commitment required.

If you cannot get the role of your choice now, then yes consider self study and gain financial services experience somehow. The more relevant your work experience the better but almost any employment will prove computer literacy, team work skills, organisation capabilities etc that are transferrable skills. Self study won't however broaden who you can apply to - there is no change to that.

Good luck
 
bystander said:
However be aware that the exams are changing in 2019 so you need to look carefully how any passes you gain will give credit under the 2019 regime before doing this.
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What, are you saying some people's passed exams will be rendered worthless by this change? Will those students get their money back?
 
No. No exam is ever worthless in terms of gaining knowledge and employers will always acknowledge the aptitude and determination of someone who self studies. But if qualifying at least expense is important, it is worth investigating next steps in the long term plan not just the next sitting because it's a long career path not a one off M Willis is seeking and I don't know all transition details.

Good luck in making your choice M Willis as to the right path for you and enjoy your career.
 
Take a look at the new syllabus. There is no difference in reality. I have passed CT6 after several attempts, I can confidently say that I have learnt nothing by taking the exam on repeated occasions and even the first time, there was not much in there that was actually useful for my job. I will have to take 2 new exams in the new exam system which cover more or less the same material. (Admin edit: CS2 contains around half CT4 and half CT6). What the IFoA don't tell you is that many people give up the exams as they just get fed up. In curriculum 2019, they originally said there was no ordering in terms of taking exams, but a couple of months later when they published information about the chartered actuary qualification, they reintroduce ordering. In 2014 or so, the IFoA published an exam timetable for "long term" planning listing exams up until 2020. In 2016, they published curriculum 2019 making any plans inferred from the exam time table for long term planning worthless as the current exams would no longer be offered from 2019. So M Willis, good luck in your career, perhaps you will fare better, but I can tell you that when you start your career there is a lot you will only find out once you are several years in and which you would have never known before. Foreign qualifications are far easier for example. The distinction in the rigour of exams between the university route and the traditional route, the constant changes to the exam system which are generally unnecessary and difficult to keep up with. I would look at alternatively to the IFoA qualification if I were starting afresh, or perhaps not even enter the profession at all.
 
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"It is a big time commitment to self study. Recommended study times are published on actuaries.org.uk. for the actuarial exams. How much you need depends in part on your academic background. Most people do get some leave as part of their employment package to do the actuarial exams. It is unusual not to get a support package of some form. The study leave alone is insufficient. You need to supplement it working in your own time. So do not underestimate the commitment required."

The IFoA should publish statistics on how many times students take exams. The claim that all exams can be completed in 3 years. But the number of students who do this is probably about 5%. The vast majority take a lot longer and many give up. I can say that I have wasted my youth on these exams and have sacrificed a normal life which everyone else seems to have enjoyed. The changes to the exam system have also diminished any "light at the end of the tunnel". I have asked the IFoA to clarify the published information, but they refuse to do so. Employers will get rid of you if your exam progress is not good enough and study support in foreign countries is lacking. And what is the point of all this study? It takes longer than a doctor or lawyer to qualify for what?
Good luck[/QUOTE]
 
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bystander said:
No. No exam is ever worthless in terms of gaining knowledge...
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Those exams are towards being conferred Fellowship not some arbitrary exercise in gaining knowledge. Ask your employer why no refund & compensation is being provided to all who have passed these exams but won't benefit from any credit from it in the new system. Those people, perhaps in the thousands, will have to spend more time and money to pursue Fellowship and find their qualification delayed.

... and employers will always acknowledge the aptitude and determination of someone who self studies.
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I doubt many employers or students have realised yet that some exam passes will be rendered worthless. Eagle-eyed members such as Infinity is doing everyone a favour by drawing attention to this.
 
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Hi, thank you all for your responses. With regards to the CII being a separate body to the IFoA, I had no idea that this was the case and assumed that there was one central body accrediting actuarial qualifications.

Could anyone comment on whether a qualification from the CII or IFoA would be more highly valued by a potential employer?
 
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before I comment further, can I check which country you are in? My comments before relate to UK and am now confused by your reference to chartered accountants as here in the UK neither CII or IFoA relate to accountancy.
 
bystander said:
before I comment further, can I check which country you are in? My comments before relate to UK and am now confused by your reference to chartered accountants as here in the UK neither CII or IFoA relate to accountancy.
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Sorry, I meant to write 'qualified actuary' (don't know how I missed that one :confused:)!

I am in the UK, currently studying mathematics at the University of Leeds.
 
Depends who you want to work for really and what kind of work you want to do. Have you thought whether for example whether you want to work for a consultancy or a direct office? What area/specialty? So life insurance, general insurance, pension, broader financial services like banking etc. I don't really want to confuse you further, but there's also bodies like PMI - pensions management institute if you are thinking pensions.
If it's maths that's driving you, yes some of the actuarial exams are mathematical but the later ones aren't particularly. I don't think generally the CII papers are heavily mathematical but there again I haven't studied them or looked at their syllabus. You need to do your own research there.
It really does depend what your end goal is and what you mean by 'valued'. I think it's generally recognised that IFoA exams are harder (just look at pass rates to see that), but that's not the only measure of value.
I think if it's a broad operational role CII may have more valued as in sought after by an employer than IFoA.
I'm sorry to say I don't think there's a definitive answer to your question.
Just be clear that in the UK there is one professional body of actuaries. CII isn't an actuarial body.
If you have a good careers service at your uni, have you tried speaking with them?
 
By the way M Willis, in view of your typo above did you mean CII in your original post, or did you mean CAA? CAA IS offered by the actuarial profession. The one thing you do need in the actuarial world is an ability to handle acronyms because it's littered with them and a slight slip means a whole new different meaning. To clarify CAA is certified actuarial analyst.
 
bystander said:
By the way M Willis, in view of your typo above did you mean CII in your original post, or did you mean CAA? CAA IS offered by the actuarial profession. The one thing you do need in the actuarial world is an ability to handle acronyms because it's littered with them and a slight slip means a whole new different meaning. To clarify CAA is certified actuarial analyst.
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I meant the qualification offered by the CII (http://www.cii.co.uk/qualifications/advanced-diploma-in-insurance-qualification/). However, now that I know that this is not necessarily the officially recognized qualification within the UK, I would instead be aiming to become an associate/fellow of the IFoA.
 
Ok. Broadly speaking those that do CII work in the more operational areas rather than the actuarial areas. It's not unheard of though for those who struggle with the actuarial exams to move and do CII instead. How that will work now CAA has come along I don't know. CAA is in its infancy and was designed for those who never want to go as far as fellow. Hope you enjoy whatever route you choose and have a great career.
 
bystander said:
Ok. Broadly speaking those that do CII work in the more operational areas rather than the actuarial areas. It's not unheard of though for those who struggle with the actuarial exams to move and do CII instead. How that will work now CAA has come along I don't know. CAA is in its infancy and was designed for those who never want to go as far as fellow. Hope you enjoy whatever route you choose and have a great career.
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Thank you for all of your help, I feel I've gained a lot of understanding of these qualifications through the help received on this forum. However, I do have one final question relating to your previous reply...

If I am certain that I want to go as far as fellow/associate, does it make sense to do the CAA first? That is, would there be a lot of overlapping content - meaning that obtaining the CAA qualification would take me a proportionally closer to obtaining the status of fellow?

If this was the case, the benefit would be that I would have some form of qualification sooner, even if it is not the end goal.
 
As I say, CAA is in its infancy so moving CAA to Associate/fellow hasn't yet been done in practice I don't think. the actuaries website talks of the development of a pathway ( you will find it if you go into the CAA section in 'studying'. It's not clear what exemptions are if you transfer across but I don't think CAA then transfer will be a short cut. I think employers mainly will look to support one or the other and very few will transfer - time will tell if I'm right or wrong.

You might also want to look at past papers of CAA and Associate (current CT exams) and read more on how they are changing.

You seem certain what you want, so try to find a job with a package that will set you on that path. Keep in touch with how the exams are evolving - not least because showing your knowledge looks good at interview. Don't be afraid to phone the profession and ask questions of your exact situation. I'm not an expert - just trying to give unemotional guidance.its your career, your choices.

Also perhaps investigate what exemptions your degree will give you. (Note there is a charge for exemptions). It seems a lot of research I know, but better you are fully aware of what you embarking in to. Enjoy your remaining time too as an undergrad.
 
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