IFoA Mathematics

Discussion in 'General study / exams' started by Infinity, Jul 25, 2018.

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  1. Infinity

    Infinity Member

    Straight from the IFoA:

    "· Student members with a currently paid subscription who have taken any examination in the last 3 sessions i.e. April 2107, September 2017 and April 2018 but who not yet passed CT3 – 3,945

    · Student members with a currently paid subscription who have taken any examination in the last 3 sessions i.e. April 2107, September 2017 and April 2018 but who not yet passed CT8 – 7,825

    · Student members with a currently paid subscription who have taken any examination in the last 3 sessions i.e. April 2107, September 2017 and April 2018 but who not yet passed CT3 or CT8 – 3,566

    Please bear in mind that students on their journey to qualification may have decided not to sit either CT3 or CT8 but have decided to wait for the new CS1 and CM2 assessments."


    Can anyone make sense of the IFoA logic!? Perhaps one of you clever actuaries can spot the mistake... and I don't mean the one about the time travelling actuaries ;-)

    It should also be noted that:

    a) CT3 and CT8 turn into two exams from 2019
    b) there are sub 30% pass rates sometimes...
    c) while the IFOA said that the new exams could be sat and passed separately, this is no longer true
    d) when taking into consideration students who have not passed the CT1/5 /or CT4/6 combination, it is over 10,000 students that will be impacted by the curriculum change that Mr Cribb says will disadvantage no one
     
  2. annuitydue

    annuitydue Member

    err simple case of and not or I think.
    (a) two papers not two exams
    (b) true, but if they failed CT3 or CT8, perhaps they'll have a better chance of passing the new exam
    (c) true - u turn. Understand this practically but shame they didn't make this decision at the start and avoid upsetting you
    (d) most of those would have been impacted without the change - ie would have to to retake anyway they'll be studying different things in different exams. A big chunk of those failing CT3 will probably give up anyway.
     
  3. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    It is indefensible adversely affecting thousands of people after promising no one would be disadvantaged. It's the kind of low standard one would expect of a dodgy politician. At least with dodgy politicians we can vote them out.
     
  4. Infinity

    Infinity Member

    please feel free to take the 6 exams instead of 3 that I and thousands of other students have to do. It will now be 60 days of study per year. I am not sure if you are aware, but there are only 365 days in a year.

    you don't seem to understand my point - 2/3 of students will be impacted

    previously the IFoA have said no one would be impacted which was a complete lie fed to stakeholders so that the new exam system could be put into place

    then they have tried to claim that only a few students would be affected

    now it turns out that thousands of students will be impacted

    i would appreciate if you would just answer the question that I have posed, or not answer at all. Your views are not helpful and based on nothing apart from your own opinion. Mine are based on hard facts.
     
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  5. annuitydue

    annuitydue Member

    You keep referring to these so had another look. So you're quoting those who haven't even sat it yet, not just those who have failed. And many of those won't attempt it. On the flip side if someone also has CT4 and CT6 outstanding they they will only have to do a 3 hour and a 1.5 hour exam rather than two 3 hour exams ignoring reading time. And what about all those who had CA3 outstanding when it switched to CP3, who effectively had one fewer exam to take.
    Quite a big chunk of the 7825 are probably students who failed their first ever exam and won't do many more. In my day they used to quote a drop out rate of at least 50%. Expect many of these were early on.
     
  6. Infinity

    Infinity Member

    Annuity due - you say “many”. This is unsubstantiated. How many? The mistake is that there must be at least 3,945 students that don’t have either CT3 or CT8 and not 3,566. How many will stop? 50% as you pull from thin air? The IFoA does not quite drop out rates anywhere. In any case I believe your number, but that is still then nearly 2,000 students who do not drop out and will face extra exams.

    On top of this there are all the students that don’t have this CT4/6 and CT1/5 combination which is another 7,000 or so. I am not talking about student who haven’t passed both CT4 and CT6 for example. These students will of course see an advantage but they will also have to do the other double exams so it’s almost fair for them. New students will have 11 exams and not 9 although not all are 3 hours so it’s almost comparable if you start completely a fresh. These students are mostly ones that have not joined or just entered the profession. The fact of the matter is that current students will be disadvantaged.

    New students will only do 2 exams of 4.5 hours in total. But potentially 7,000 current students will have to take CT6 AND the 2 new exams including learning a new computer language for example.

    If the material is so important, why don’t qualified actuaries have to take the new exams? And I know people will ignore the hard facts above and concentrate on the next statement, but I have learned very little from the examinations so far. Fellowship SA3 question. How can you increase premium volume without without changing the premium rate? give people a free cuddly animal or pen... a serious answer which would score you points in the most uncecessary and contrived exams ever.

    At the end of the day there is no excuse from the ceo or IFoA about lying to students who will be disadvantaged or put in “limbo”
     
  7. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    Potential compo here is massive then as thousands will have passed an exam that is no longer worth anything for being conferred FIA.
     
  8. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    IFoA mathematics - they tell University students at career fairs actuarial salaries are from £33k when their website states £33k is the average. The Advertising Standards Authority have confirmed this advert breaches their advertising code and are dealing with the IFoA.
     
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  9. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    IFoA mathematics - the now deleted ad by IFoA on social media claiming it is "normally" 6.5 years to qualify, when their website claims between 3 and 6 years on average.
     
  10. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    ASA will be probing the IFoA regarding:
    1. the claim “Actuarial salaries start from 33,000”;
    2. the claims “You can work all over the world” and “An actuarial career is a global passport. With an internationally recognised professional qualification you can work anywhere in the World”; and
    3. the claims for how long it takes to qualify as an actuary.
     
  11. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    It is an extremely serious matter for a professional qualifications body to be found foul of regulatory or legal codes. Remember we pay this organisation's CEO nearly £400k to get this sort of stuff right, never mind all the other hundreds of thousands for the rest of their staff.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2018
  12. Viki2010

    Viki2010 Member

    The idea of loosing exam passes due to the exam system changing is nothing new. In 2005 when the exams were changing from 100 series to CTs, a similar situation occurred when 103 and 104 got merged into CT4. People who only had a pass in 103 or in 104, lost the other exam and essentially had to retake the same exam in the new system. Everybody lived through it and now it is happening again. I just wonder why the IFOA says that nobody will be disadvantaged... that is not true.
     
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  13. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    It's bad enough making such an obviously misleading & incorrect statement in the annual report. What makes it even worse is (i) the lack of apology for it- this damages trust, (ii) nothing has been offered to students who will be disadvantaged, and (iii) the way the complaint has been kept quiet- it was not even discussed in any of the IFoA Council minutes, nor FRC/IFoA meetings, not in student consultative forum & not explored in the IFoA actuary magazine.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 21, 2018
  14. Calm

    Calm Ton up Member

    I believe 103 is Stochastic Models? Then it means there is, ironically, someone out there who got both 104 and CT6 but is going to have to sit CS2 anyway (even with those two historical passes). Wow, that's a lot of wasted papers. My CT5 prof knows someone who fits that exact criteria.
     
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  15. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    With regards to this:
    Not so long ago IFoA website stated starting salaries were between £25k and 35k. This means they were from 25k. This year IFoA told prospective students in adverts that actuarial starting salaries are from £33k. There's no way in just a few years it's gone up £8k. This is a very material error, from a numerate professional body.

    Is it just some typo, an innocent mistake? Earlier this year their ad on target jobs website stated the false from £33k claim. IFoA had to correct it. One would expect IFoA from that point to learn their lesson but no, as adverts targeted at students in career fairs this autumn also said from £33k. There's no excuse for that.

    The bottom line is that selling a qualification that takes twice or three times as long as qualifying as an accountant, where 60% who start out never complete the qualification, with starting salary from £25k is a very hard sell.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 3, 2018
  16. Ace123

    Ace123 Member

    Maybe the IFoA are now using salaries worldwide when talking about estimates for starting. For instance i, a graduate with all the exemptions in 8 CT's, could earn up to €40k just out of college. There are many salary surveys from recruitment agencies backing this up.

    You fail to mention in your accountant example that there is time frame on exams for an accountant.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 4, 2018
  17. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    No they're not. Perhaps you don't realise that salaries are not paid in Euros in the UK. You have already in another thread refused to believe the figures from the survey used by IFoA on their website. I'm guessing you haven't approached IFoA to complain about sharing figures on their website you believe to be inaccurate.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 13, 2018
  18. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    Even in the IFoA's own magazine "The Actuary", on page 42 is an advert by a recruitment agency showing data from a salary survey. Graduate actuary salaries are from £22k outside London and £25k in London. This is further evidence that IFoA have been materially misleading young people in its marketing that salaries start from £33k.
    https://issuu.com/redactive/docs/act_nov18_full_lr?e=1334262/65643080
     
  19. Aladinsane

    Aladinsane Member

    Is this true?
     
  20. Muppet

    Muppet Member

    sounds about right. Think it used to be about that 10+ years ago. Wouldn't be surprised if it's even more now given the hundreds that take CT1 (even excluding non-members). A fair proportion who fail CT1 probably never take an exam again.
     
  21. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    IFoA refuse to say. I got that figure from a thesis written in 1997. It is in accordance with what I've seen in this profession. I'll keep using that figure until IFoA disclose.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2018
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