Apparently there is a much easier way to become qualified!!!

Discussion in 'General study / exams' started by entact, Oct 12, 2016.

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  1. entact

    entact Member

    I recently qualified after completing all exams through the Institute and Faculty of Actuaries. It took me over six years to pass every exam but I worked hard and got there in the end. A colleague of mine moved to the UK from Spain. To qualify as an actuary in Spain you need to complete a degree and get a certain amount of work experience. My colleague worked in one of the Big Four accountancy firms in Spain where qualified actuaries were paid €40k. I am not surprised by this as the much easier route to qualifying in Spain would obviously mean lower salaries and more actuaries. She was surprised to discover that the salaries were so 'high' in the UK for a profession that only required a degree and some work experience.

    Why on earth does the IFoA have ths "Actuarial Association of Europe (AAE) Agreement" whereby someone in her position can work for a year under supervision and get the same qualification as someone who works through all the UK exams.

    Can someone please explain this to me? Surely, this will dilute the credibility of the FIA qualification?
     
    almost_there likes this.
  2. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    Many, many years ago I knew a Spanish qualified actuary but he had to pass some of the later subjects over here in order to be recognised as qualified here. Are you saying they've diluted this requirement over the years?

    At the very least people should have to pass an SA exam and CA3 (in English), in my opinion.
     
  3. bystander

    bystander Member

    I don't think there is enough facts here to judge. I don't know for example anything about university education in Spain compared to the UK. The thing to remember is to get a job here in the UK in our profession so we have to give some credit to UK employers that they are rigours in their employment filters to ensure quality. Then there is the safeguard of supervisory work. No one takes lightly certifying someone's ability. As for the salary comparison what's the difference in living standards? Salaries in London are inflated so taking an average is there really a huge difference. So no I don't automatically feel it dilutes our qualication. Just be proud of your own achievement.
     
  4. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    bystander, I'd say there are enough facts to discuss this matter.

    In the past they had to pass a few extra exams to be considered qualified in the UK compared to Spain then, as in Spain they were usually qualified after a degree or a year after. I'm not sure to what extent they studied things like stochastic modelling or derivatives at all, compared to standards of CT exams. Furthermore it's obvious they wouldn't have studied an SA type subject for a UK context & if I recall they had to sit an ST as well (bit hard to pass SA without having done ST anyway isn't it?).

    If the IFoA have diluted the crossover requirements without corresponding improvement in the Spanish qualification requirements then that should concern everyone about the credibility of the qualifications we spend so much time and effort to achieve here in the UK.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2016
  5. LastHurdles

    LastHurdles Member

    I also work with someone who has taken an actuarial science degree in Spain. On moving to the UK they had the option to sit the relevant SA subject and immediately become a fellow of the UK Profession on successful completion OR work in the UK for one year and become fellow without having to complete the SA subject. They first attempted the first method to become a fellow and get the relevat pay rise etc. However they found it too difficult so resorted to working for one year and becoming a fellow that way.

    Nothing wrong with the first method in my opinion. But the second is obviously unfair.
     
    John Lee likes this.
  6. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    I remember that, many years ago, the Spanish qualified actuaries were finding it very difficult to pass the additional exams that were required then, noting they were much harder to pass than what they had previously done in Spain. Also sometimes there were English language issues that made things harder also.
     
  7. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    LastHurdles, I consider both of those methods completely unfair & wonder whether this constitutes discrimination under the Equality act on the basis of nationality?

    There are people who leave UK universities with similar or harder Undergraduate and (expensive) Postgraduate degrees in Actuarial Science or Financial Maths etc. who struggle to get exemptions from CT exams. I doubt very much a degree in Spain covers all 15 exams' material in the same depth & standard.

    I'm currently preparing to sit CA3 at great expense and trouble- don't you think that exam should be even more important to those from Spain, to ensure their English communication skills are satisfactory? I expect that actuarial science degrees in Spain are conducted through the medium of Spanish.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 13, 2016
  8. bystander

    bystander Member

    Most Europeans are multilingual with English as their second language. Again to gain a job in the UK their fluency for a professional role will be tested at interview, though I can see some argument that being able to discuss in non technical knowledge perhaps would help.I do agree they need additional training on UK specific regulation. Sometimes that is best learned with supervised work experience so they see it in practise. Who knows, things may change post Brexit and the agreement may change. I've only worked with actuaries from South Africa. There again their training differs, but I've not seen any evidence that says they are not as good as UK actuaries once they master UK regulation
     
  9. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    but who's to say that the written and oral standards are good enough for CA3, or to pass ANY IFoA exam e.g. SA, ST or CA1? It shouldn't be assumed it is. After all we have a 60% fail rate on this exam, with many failing it having English as first language with A at GCSE.
     
  10. LastHurdles

    LastHurdles Member

    I'm not saying they are not good at there job or they don't have the relevant skills. My argument is purely from the examination process to get the fellowship. Everyone should have to go through the same or equivalent process to qualify
     
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  11. bystander

    bystander Member

    The point then is the profession believe there is equivalence and would have done much research in deriving that conclusion. Without fully understanding Spanish education I'm not in a place to judge. I just am proud of my qualification and satisfied in the due diligence of the profession and anyone who accepts supervisory responsibilities that they would not recommend a transfer to FIA lightly. Once they are Fia they face the same cpd regime too.
     
  12. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    I'd love to see how a Spanish degree in actuarial science equates to CT, CA, ST & SA series exams... that's a busy time in Uni. Bystander look at UK Uni undergrad and postgrad courses and see how many exemptions they get. Or is the Spanish university education system much superior to ours, is that what you're concluding?
     
  13. bystander

    bystander Member

    As I say I simply don't know. Im not concluding anything as I have incomplete facts. I know some places have degrees equivalent to our Masters. And some of our such courses can indeed lead to nearly all exemptions if you do well enough so you only need sa0. All I'm saying is I'm sure the profession thinks these things through very carefully. I'm just proud of my own qualification and not bitter that many people qualified quicker and younger than I did both here and overseas. And yes our system is tough but I still wouldn't want to have qualified any other way
     
  14. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    bystander, I'm glad you're proud of your qualification but you don't seem to understand the points being made.

    Please name an undergraduate degree course in the UK that means you can get FIA with just 1 year work experience & no further exams after graduating?
     
  15. bystander

    bystander Member

    There aren't any undergraduate degrees that give that much. I should have been clearer that some masters and higher here get the highest exemptions for very very strong candidates. It would need higher degrees. In the end, here isn't the place to lobby if you feel that strongly that the UK approach to qualification of those from abroad is flawed. I'd address your concerns to the President of our profession. Again I reiterate I haven't seen all the evidence on work done behind tha agreement between our profession and Spain. Without that, I can't draw conclusions on equity. Hence I can't say it's wrong or right.
     
  16. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    bystander, don't you think people would be better off going to Spain to do an actuarial science degree then coming back to the UK to pick up their FIA?
     
  17. bystander

    bystander Member

    In short, no I wouldn't do it that way. It's not that I think their way is any better or worse, I'm simply happy with the U.K. Method of qualification and trust the profession to have thought equivalence through. Some clearly would consider relocation then returning and that's equally their right. Likewise it's my right to have qualified here in the UK. 'better off' is very subjective.
     
  18. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    would you care to explain why British students don't get the option of 1 year work experience instead of passing a SA exam to get their FIA?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 17, 2016
  19. bystander

    bystander Member

    No idea. Possibly an extra supervised year would work it's just now how it's done here. Our exam system is always open to consultation case in point being the review being undertaken for 2019. Guess it's never been a proposal on the table. I think I've shared enough of my views. Let's agree to differ.
     
    John Lee likes this.
  20. Hemant Rupani

    Hemant Rupani Senior Member

  21. almost_there

    almost_there Member

    Hermant, there's further confirmation that you qualify by degree only in Spain: no further exams required. In the UK you have to endure, up to 15 gruelling, time-consuming, expensive exams on top of your job for many years to qualify. There's no way 1-year work experience equates to all that. I feel most sorry for the UK students who have tried and dropped out; imagine how they feel about this?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2016
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