IAI vs IFoA

[Infinity]

I don't know if I am just slow but I didn't realise there is such a glaring disparity between the IFoA and IAI exams. I thought the exams were the same and the qualifications equivalent, but this does not seem to be the case.

In this forum we discuss content from our exams which share the same name but there are vast differences which only seem to be based on nationality.

1. Cost - Firstly for the same study material, I as an IFoA member have to pay god knows how much more. Exam entry, student membership also have vast differences.

2. Content - i didn't realise the exams are actually different. While upon first glance they seem to be the same, they clearly are not.

3. Difficulty - if the exams are meant to be equivalent and I appreciate there can be some disparities in terms of cost of living so perhaps an adjustment for cost is justified, but then why are there differences in the way the papers are marked and pass rates and ultimately the difficult of the exam. The IAI have fixed pass marks at 50pc while the IFoA mark is variable. The papers seem to have much less long winded questions although the pass rate for the IAI seems to be substantially lower, despite the content of the exams being the same...

4. Eligibility - so why dont I go and join the IAI I hear you ask? An IAI member can join the IFoA but vice versa is not possible. A member whose name I won't mention suggested that I go and join a foreign institute if I was displeased with the IFoA. While I explained it is not practical, I didn't realise that it is not even permissible just because I have a U.K. Passport

5. Curriculum 2019 - the most unjust point is that I have a time limit imposed on me to pass my exams but the IAI Actuaries have no such pressure or time limit. As an IFoA member I will also have to take more exams, have to endure more study hours and have an increased time to qualify compared to an IAI member despite there being mutual recognition and therefore equivalence between the two organizations.

I tried to compare other European qualifications which is difficult due to the different content of the exams, but in this case, where the IAI students even have the same study material as the IFoA Actuaries, I find it difficult to understand how the IFoA is not engaging in discriminatory behavior and victimising me in this manner.

I really do not understand why there are different treatments for different nationalities yet we are all bunched together here in this Acted forum pretending everything is rosy and we are treated with equal rights.

 

[almost_there]

4. Eligibility - so why dont I go and join the IAI I hear you ask? An IAI member can join the IFoA but vice versa is not possible. A member whose name I won't mention suggested that I go and join a foreign institute if I was displeased with the IFoA. While I explained it is not practical, I didn't realise that it is not even permissible just because I have a U.K. Passport

Sounds like direct discrimination on the basis of nationality. Less favourable treatment = you're not allowed to join the IAI then benefit from the MRA with the IFoA due to your British nationality. Comparator would be you with a British nationality compared to an equivalent individual with a Indian or some other non-British nationality.

 

[Aditya mohan mathur]

Are you sure the passing marks for IAI is 50% for all exams?
Where did you find this?

 

[thekang]

Sorry I'm not of much help, I'm not familiar with the India system. If you want to but are not eligible to join the IAI, then you should bring this feedback to them.

You are equating mutual recognition to "equivalent" when this is not the case. This is not an IAI forum, it is an IFOA (well, technically ActEd) forum that just happens to have the same content as IAI exams. I am also pretty sure that IFOA and IAI do not even meet much at all, let alone discuss how to standardise the exams.

The IFOA is clearly the more globally recognised credential. Whatever the IAI decides to do is independent of the IFOA. Just because the IAI chooses to follow the IFOA exam system doesn't mean the IFOA should be worrying about how its curriculum changes affects other societies. The mutual recognition is a temporary concession negotiated by each society, not some guaranteed entitlement that everyone should enjoy.

I think if you sit back and think about it more, you will realise there is really no one "out to get you".

 

[almost_there]

I think if you sit back and think about it more, you will realise there is really no one "out to get you".

My understanding of UK law is that proving intent is not necessary when it comes to discrimination. If discrimination takes place, if people are treated less favourably and this is linked to their protected characteristics (age, sex, race, nationality etc) then one has a claim.

 

[Infinity]

I didn't think this was an IAI forum but there are as many quotes from IAI members as there are from the IFOA. Firstly I have nothing against IAI members. My gripe is with the people in charge.

With regards to the pass mark. Ask the IAI and see what they say. I haven't got the evidence I'm afraid. Although I do have evidence that I'm not able to join the IAI only due to my British nationality. Funny thing is that I also have an Indian OCI card.

From what I have heard, the MRA between the IAI was not negotiated by the IAI. There is no coincidence that the IAI follows the IFoA. The IFoA have "told" the IAI that they can't accept U.K Citizens if they want to share our resources whereas the IFoA will welcome IAI members who can afford to pay the U.K. Level fees. The reason is most likely money. The IAI exams are significantly cheaper and the IFoA did not want to lose revenue and open the floodgates for IFoA members to pay a fraction of the exam entry fee and lose their custom. So while you might not think the IFoA is not out to get you, it's because they're doing it from under your nose. The IFoA is not acting in the interest of its members and advancing actuarial knowledge. If the IFOA was acting in our interests they would not open the floodgates to the actuarial profession and preserve rather than destroy exclusitivity.

Regarding globally recognised. I work abroad and students who can speak a foreign language laugh at me as I struggle with the U.K. Qualification. My Swiss colleagues are done in 2/3 years with the SAV and then they ask someone to sign them off as a FIA. Some of their exams are 20 minutes long and they they start studying a week before the exam. There are several I know of working in the U.K. But they'll never tell you they got their qualification via a MRA.

 

[Infinity]

Are you sure the passing marks for IAI is 50% for all exams?
Where did you find this?

It says it clearly in this article:

http://www.theactuary.com/features/2012/04/education-sunrise-for-indian-actuaries/

 

[Hemant Rupani]

Article mentioned above is more than 5 years old. I think there must be a lot of changes since then.

You may like to check latest talk on pass marks by the President of IAI - here (page 4)

 

[Infinity]

Are you sure the passing marks for IAI is 50% for all exams?
Where did you find this?

Article mentioned above is more than 5 years old. I think there must be a lot of changes since then.

You may like to check latest talk on pass marks by the President of IAI - here (page 4)

I checked the article you mentioned. Perhaps you need to read it again. It mentions that the U.K. Pass marks have been revealed but the Indian ones will remain shrouded in secrecy. The only reason the U.K. Ones have been revealed is that students are wising up to the fact they don't have to put up with this ridiculous king/slave atttiude the IFoA and the IAI adopt. We have data protection laws here and it is easy for even a student to litigate and request what personal information is held about them as it is not just to hold personal information without revealing it to the individual concerned. Give it a few years and perhaps the IAI will catch up....

 

[Hemant Rupani]

I checked the article you mentioned. Perhaps you need to read it again. It mentions that the U.K. Pass marks have been revealed but the Indian ones will remain shrouded in secrecy. The only reason the U.K. Ones have been revealed is that students are wising up to the fact they don't have to put up with this ridiculous king/slave atttiude the IFoA and the IAI adopt. We have data protection laws here and it is easy for even a student to litigate and request what personal information is held about them as it is not just to hold personal information without revealing it to the individual concerned. Give it a few years and perhaps the IAI will catch up....

Well, my reply was for credibility of fixed pass marks rather than disclosure of pass marks. Because, you attached an old article to show evidence of IAI's pass mark to be fixed at 50%.
And if you see in the 4th page of attached magazine, past president Rajesh Dalmia implied pass mark is not fixed by saying, "The lower pass mark levels take care of these differences and hence from passing criteria perspective levels of both the exams are similar."

 

[Infinity]

Hi,

I don't want to waste my time arguing with you. Please read the statement you have quoted carefully. By lower pass mark "levels", Mr Dalmia is referring to a comparison between the U.K. Exams and the Indian exams. He says the Indian exams are somewhat more difficult that the U.K. Exams as they have lower pass marks. That does not mean the pass marks are variable in the Indian system at all.

Despite the fact that the article I sent you was 5 years old, the system should NOT be changing on a frequent basis and it is quite appropriate to assume that nothing has changed. The article I have sent you specifically states without any ambiguity that the pass mark is 50pc.

Looking at the Indian papers, they seem easier than the IFoA papers since they have much less text and the questions are phrased much more succinctly in a simpler format to understand. There is no difference in the content or syllabus as we attend the same classes yet the 50pc fixed pass mark seems to be generally lower than than the pass parks which have now finally been quoted for the U.K. Exams.

 

[almost_there]

I guess saying anything other than they're equivalent would be problematic for them since they have an MRA going on...

 

[Hemant Rupani]

I interpret pass mark levels as variable pass marks... (maybe my English is not good enough.)
Fine, even I think I should not waste my time in this semantic dispute.

 

[Infinity]

"Agreed that the Indian exams are little tougher than the UK exams but then the pass mark levels are also set at a lower levels compared to the just released pass marks levels by the UK profession."

Just to kill this discussion, this above quote is what I believe you are referring to from the magazine article. While you may think your English is bad, the author of the article could also perhaps do with a few English lessons.

As you can see he mentions "at a lower levels" - note the use of the indefinite article "a" combined with the plural noun "levels".

While I am not an expert in English grammar, if I have understood correctly, your conclusion is based on the fact that the plural form of level (i.e levels) has been used rather than the singular and you consequently infer there is a variable pass mark. However, your argument is based on a sentence riddled with grammatical mistakes and more specifically grammatical mistakes relating to the use of a plural.

The article I have shown your previously, while it may be old as you have pointed out, states in black and white that the pass mark is fixed at 50%. Please go and ask the IAI and see what they say if you want the definitive answer, but most likely, they will evade your questions.

In the same sentence, Mr Dalmia says that while a review determined the IFoA and IAI exams have the same standard he states "Agreed that the Indian exams are little tougher..." I would cancel your subscription to this magazine...

To be honest, this is not a waste of time. This demonstrates the confusion caused by the IFoA and IAI through their lack of transparency.

 

[Infinity]

Sorry I'm not of much help, I'm not familiar with the India system. If you want to but are not eligible to join the IAI, then you should bring this feedback to them.

You are equating mutual recognition to "equivalent" when this is not the case. This is not an IAI forum, it is an IFOA (well, technically ActEd) forum that just happens to have the same content as IAI exams. I am also pretty sure that IFOA and IAI do not even meet much at all, let alone discuss how to standardise the exams.

The IFOA is clearly the more globally recognised credential. Whatever the IAI decides to do is independent of the IFOA. Just because the IAI chooses to follow the IFOA exam system doesn't mean the IFOA should be worrying about how its curriculum changes affects other societies. The mutual recognition is a temporary concession negotiated by each society, not some guaranteed entitlement that everyone should enjoy.

I think if you sit back and think about it more, you will realise there is really no one "out to get you".

The problem is that the IAI is instructed by the IFoA in this respect. I understand that the IFoA have told the IAI not to accept British Citizens as student members, otherwise the IAI students can't attend their tutorials and use the acted notes....

If no one is meeting to discuss exams, then how can mutual recognition be granted? Surely there must be some standards in place to ensure the qualifications require the same amount of rigour?

Why is the IFoA more globally recognised? It just depends on your luck and which qualification the chief actuary has in the company you may work for. The Swiss/German/French or whatever qualification you may have are all equally recognised and you can go and get yourself an FIA once you have one of these in half the time it would take to complete an FIA itself. They you can be recognised as much as you like with your shiny FIA title even though you have only spent half the time taking a qualification which has less study time and examinations.

What do you mean the mutual recognition is temporary? I don't quite understand this point....

 

[Aditya mohan mathur]

Everyone would agree Indian exams are easier than UK exams

 

[thekang]

The majority of us on this forum are going through the IFOA exams. Not sure why this is a problem for you. If you want to go through life looking for shortcuts, then good luck to you.

 

[Bharti Singla]

Everyone would agree Indian exams are easier than UK exams

 

[Infinity]

The majority of us on this forum are going through the IFOA exams. Not sure why this is a problem for you. If you want to go through life looking for shortcuts, then good luck to you.

Who said I'm looking for a shortcut? You've obviously misunderstood.

My issue is that others have shortcuts available to them and this is unfair.

I also object to having extra requirements imposed on me for absolutely no reason. If I don't pass CT4, CT5 and CT8, I'll have to study these topics, which has no relevance whatsoever to my job now or on the future, all over again.

I have to study while my colleagues finish their Swiss exams in 2-3 years and can get on with their jobs. This is a problem for me as I am being leapfrogged by colleagues and the exams have destroyed my life. It is causing me financial difficulty as well as affecting my mental wellbeing.

 

[almost_there]

My issue is that others have shortcuts available to them and this is unfair.

Exactly and the manner in which the IFoA is resisting shutting down these loopholes is deeply disappointing. I feel held to ransom by exams other people don't have to do!